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Bypassing slam/kick cooldown by using platforms/objects

All reported bugs that's actually by design.
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Bypassing slam/kick cooldown by using platforms/objects

Post by KliPeH » Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:03 pm

This exploit has been here for ages. I still don't see how it can be considered a legitimate move, but I always assumed a thread about it will be shot down as soon as it went up so I never bothered creating it. A discussion on Lunatic's latest thread made it clear that the devs apparently are not aware of this finding, so here's a thread explaining how to recreate this and why this is a problem.

Firstly, here's a demonstration of what a regular slam cooldown looks like (first two swings), and what bypassing the cooldown looks like (next 3 swings).
► Show Spoiler
Put into words, a regular slam should result in you kneeling down for a second after hitting the ground. It happens after you jump and punch, or if you fall farther than regular-jump height. What you see after I show the cooldown is a way to bypass it - standing on an elevated object/platform, walking in any direction dropping down (without jumping), and hitting the attack button midair. If you time it correctly, you will land on your feet without suffering any cooldown and are able to continue your regular punching/kicking combo as usual.

The same can be done with kicks.
► Show Spoiler
Again, I demonstrate regular kick cooldown in my first 3 attempts, and then show how it can be done without getting kick cooldown. My last attempt shows how this can be continued with a regular punch combo. Don't think it's fast? Here's what a regular button-mash kick pattern looks like (with its cooldown).
► Show Spoiler
---

Putting this all into perspective, you could use the no-cooldown kick trick to stagger an opponent into a long drop by standing on an crate/barrel, kicking once, moving in their direction, and kicking again while midair for another push towards the edge. Alternatively, kick once, move, punch midair for a no-cooldown slam, and continue with a regular 3-punch combo for massive melee damage.

This gets worse if you have a melee weapon. A heavy one, like a fireaxe. Here's what a no-cooldown slam looks like on a bot.
► Show Spoiler
Imagine doing THIS, with a strong melee weapon, multiple times in a row. Suddenly you're easily chipping off 15-30, or even MORE health off of a poor player who can't react to your attacks (player gets up only after the 2nd hit). Even if they do manage to escape, the damage dealt makes it easier to kill them later or makes them easy prey for the other opponents.

Oh, but there's more.
These tricks can be used with platforms! You see, the no-cooldown trick works when you're
  • a) midair
    b) when the fall height isn't big enough to result in a cooldown.
That means that when dropping off of platforms into nearby objects, both a) and b) occur, resulting in this:
► Show Spoiler
---

I'll explain why these methods are broken and can't be masked as simply "using the terrain to your advantage" again.
Cooldown was introduced to prevent
  • a) spamming these moves without consequences
    b) prevent fast movement and melee "hit-n-run" tactics.
When you use these tricks, none of the above happen. You ARE able to spam these attacks (read: brawling between two objects), and AREN'T slowed down by the cooldown which means nothing stops you from running away and/or attempting to do this again. This cannot be ignored simply because the damage output is low, as the tricks can and ARE used with stronger melee weapons such as the (supposedly slow) katana and the machete. Additionally, creating a move which cannot be countered is bad game design. The rapid kick/slam after a previous kick/punch ensure that either the first or the second hit CANNOT be blocked as the block's duration (and its cooldown) prevent the whole combo from being negated. Not only does it give you free damage, it also promotes spamming the attack/block button rather than strategizing or planning your moves while you fight.

You can fix this by introducing cooldown for both kick and slam regardless of drop height. It would surely slow melee down further, but that's a result of keeping broken mechanics in-game rather than introducing new ones and developing new combos or movesets, and has nothing to do with this thread in particular.
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Post by Ultimate » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:28 pm

I don't see the problem with it. Nobody is complaining about it. "fixing" it will only kill the game more, literally most of what you're complaining about is known in the community and everyone likes it. Or at least uses it a lot, so it's safe to assume everyone, but you is ok with it.
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Post by KliPeH » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:43 pm

Ultimate wrote:I don't see the problem with it. Nobody is complaining about it. "fixing" it will only kill the game more, literally most of what you're complaining about is known in the community and everyone likes it. Or at least uses it a lot, so it's safe to assume everyone, but you is ok with it.
Firstly, I don't think you know what "literally" is. You're not stating a fact here; not "everyone in the community" knows how to exploit the melee system because the tutorial doesn't teach these tricks to new players - they learn it the hard way.
Secondly, just because "everyone" is using it doesn't mean a) they're fine with it, or b) it's fine from a balancing point of view. I'm using it because it is more advantageous to do so; like I said, the goal is to win and I want to reach that goal. These mechanics are still broken and need fixing.
Thirdly, don't be so dramatic. It won't "kill the game", it'll slow melee down a bit. It's not my fault. I'd rather have the fix coupled with a new combo/moveset introduction, but if I can't get that I'll just take the fix. All I'm doing is reporting a glitch here.

Just because you "don't see the problem" doesn't mean there is none.
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Post by Hjarpe » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:33 pm

Thanks for the report, Klipeh. I disagree strongly that this is a problem, what you described is actually my favourite aspect of the melee.

Basically, what all this amounts to is that you can get extra hits in if you're on slightly higher ground than your opponent. This is by design. You can do it and your opponents can do it, so what's unfair about it? You can't "spam" it, because to get back on the high ground you have to jump, which makes you vulnerable. Also, your opponent can do the same thing as you. So again, how is it unfair? I struggle to understand.

I like this system because it encourages you to think about the environment all the time. A crate or a table can make all the difference in a fistfight, and it often leads to hilarity as you play king of the hill with the last remaining desk.
I'll explain why these methods are broken and can't be masked as simply "using the terrain to your advantage" again.
Cooldown was introduced to prevent
a) spamming these moves without consequences
b) prevent fast movement and melee "hit-n-run" tactics.
Well, a is true, but b isn't. On the contrary, we want to encourage hit-n'-run tactics. We want people to move around and look for opportunities in the environment, not just stand there punching each other.

One point I agree with is that it can be tough for new players to learn these mechanics. Then again, that's true about a lot of things in the game, and we can't teach every little thing in the tutorial.
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Post by Wozenbelt » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:53 pm

Hjarpe wrote: Well, a is true, but b isn't. On the contrary, we want to encourage hit-n'-run tactics. We want people to move around and look for opportunities in the environment, not just stand there punching each other.
I've been wondering about this decision, though. If you don't want players to stand still punching each other, why put an egregious cooldown on the only attacks that can be used while moving? Putting cooldown time on mobile attacks would encourage players not to use them as much, yes? There's something I'm not getting here.
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Post by Ultimate » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:56 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Ultimate wrote:I don't see the problem with it. Nobody is complaining about it. "fixing" it will only kill the game more, literally most of what you're complaining about is known in the community and everyone likes it. Or at least uses it a lot, so it's safe to assume everyone, but you is ok with it.
Firstly, I don't think you know what "literally" is. You're not stating a fact here; not "everyone in the community" knows how to exploit the melee system because the tutorial doesn't teach these tricks to new players - they learn it the hard way.
Secondly, just because "everyone" is using it doesn't mean a) they're fine with it, or b) it's fine from a balancing point of view. I'm using it because it is more advantageous to do so; like I said, the goal is to win and I want to reach that goal. These mechanics are still broken and need fixing.
Thirdly, don't be so dramatic. It won't "kill the game", it'll slow melee down a bit. It's not my fault. I'd rather have the fix coupled with a new combo/moveset introduction, but if I can't get that I'll just take the fix. All I'm doing is reporting a glitch here.

Just because you "don't see the problem" doesn't mean there is none.
Jesus Christ, what, you want this to be the most static game developed? With every update, that "fixes gameplay", the main majority of the players that host often, and play (join) servers, eventually fade away.
All of my in-game friends, (most of the community) hated the slowdown in melee, so as a result the only servers I get to join now are a new player's server or a European server, while the new players could barely tell the difference, because they don't play long enough to care.
Why should the game be defined by you, a player I've only seen ONCE in-game, if not at all, while everyone else is having a good time with the game as it is?
Like for example, anytime Lunatic hosts he always complains about how much the game is not to his liking, so why should he have a say after he's been complaining for so long? "pibble forced me to host". "game bad"
With every "fix" you report you're killing the community that's already small.
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Post by Hjarpe » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:58 pm

Wozenbelt wrote:I've been wondering about this decision, though. If you don't want players to stand still punching each other, why put an egregious cooldown on the only attacks that can be used while moving? Putting cooldown time on mobile attacks would encourage players not to use them as much, yes? There's something I'm not getting here.
The reason for the "kneel-landing" was that jump kicks were being spammed. There was pretty much no reason to use any other attack. The threshold for how far you need to fall to kneel-land was put there deliberately so you wouldn't be slowed down if you just wanted to drop down from,say, a crate and do a jumpkick.
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Post by Shock » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:01 pm

Hjarpe wrote:Thanks for the report, Klipeh. I disagree strongly that this is a problem, what you described is actually my favourite aspect of the melee.

Basically, what all this amounts to is that you can get extra hits in if you're on slightly higher ground than your opponent. This is by design. You can do it and your opponents can do it, so what's unfair about it? You can't "spam" it, because to get back on the high ground you have to jump, which makes you vulnerable. Also, your opponent can do the same thing as you. So again, how is it unfair? I struggle to understand.

I like this system because it encourages you to think about the environment all the time. A crate or a table can make all the difference in a fistfight, and it often leads to hilarity as you play king of the hill with the last remaining desk.
I'll explain why these methods are broken and can't be masked as simply "using the terrain to your advantage" again.
Cooldown was introduced to prevent
a) spamming these moves without consequences
b) prevent fast movement and melee "hit-n-run" tactics.
Well, a is true, but b isn't. On the contrary, we want to encourage hit-n'-run tactics. We want people to move around and look for opportunities in the environment, not just stand there punching each other.

One point I agree with is that it can be tough for new players to learn these mechanics. Then again, that's true about a lot of things in the game, and we can't teach every little thing in the tutorial.
I fully agree with you Hjapre , many players still use this so-called skill is the ability entered the game as one of the most used skills , named (for some it is called "Eclipse" , and other "Spam-Kick") , I liked your post.
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Post by Wozenbelt » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:09 pm

Hjarpe wrote:The reason for the "kneel-landing" was that jump kicks were being spammed. There was pretty much no reason to use any other attack. The threshold for how far you need to fall to kneel-land was put there deliberately so you wouldn't be slowed down if you just wanted to drop down from,say, a crate and do a jumpkick.
It was suggested, though, back when jump kicks were running rampant, that blocking a jump kick would stagger the attacker and put them in a "critical hit" state. This would make the attack riskier to use while also rewarding a player's good timing. I guess I could make a suggestion thread and elaborate.
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Post by KliPeH » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:37 pm

Ultimate wrote: Jesus Christ, what, you want this to be the most static game developed? With every update, that "fixes gameplay", the main majority of the players that host often, and play (join) servers, eventually fade away. [...]
What? How can you even make that connection? Where are the statistics to back this all up? Don't you think the majority of hosts "fades away" because they simply get bored of the game, rather than our "fixes" "killing it"? New players constantly join too, where are the numbers that say host amount is directly linked to game updates and bug fixing?
Ultimate wrote: [...] Why should the game be defined by you, a player I've only seen ONCE in-game, if not at all, while everyone else is having a good time with the game as it is?
Like for example, anytime Lunatic hosts he always complains about how much the game is not to his liking, so why should he have a say after he's been complaining for so long? "pibble forced me to host". "game bad"
With every "fix" you report you're killing the community that's already small.
What does my in-game activity have to do with what I'm reporting? Who are YOU to say I don't play enough? I've been playing weekly for 2 years, how is using yourself even a reasonable comparison? Do you even know what timezones are? Or life outside of a videogame?
Nobody owes me anything, I'm here reporting what I think to be an exploit that can be used to win the game. It's a bug-and-glitch section, used to report broken aspects of the game. Look around. Your argument is downright moronic; my views, ideas, suggestions, are only that. I'm not a dev, I can't change the game, I can only try to make it better. Lunatic and the rest aren't looking to ruin it either, they are simply disappointed the game isn't going in their expected direction, and I'm no different.

If my suggestions are bound to stay in the forum as mere words, so be it, but you can't expect me to stop arguing my point if I genuinely think I'm right. It really does sound like you're looking for a fight, and here isn't the right place for that. Attack the argument, not the person.
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Post by Ultimate » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:08 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Ultimate wrote: Jesus Christ, what, you want this to be the most static game developed? With every update, that "fixes gameplay", the main majority of the players that host often, and play (join) servers, eventually fade away. [...]
What? How can you even make that connection? Where are the statistics to back this all up? Don't you think the majority of hosts "fades away" because they simply get bored of the game, rather than our "fixes" "killing it"? New players constantly join too, where are the numbers that say host amount is directly linked to game updates and bug fixing?
Hmmm, I don't know, it's not like the players actually complain while playing about how much they hate the "fixes".
"This update sucks.... This update wasn't needed, etc."
Hell, some players even concluded, (not by me) "They did this update to shut Lunatic up".

Do you even make sense right now? I never said you don't play enough, you only brought it up to prove a redundant point.
By me saying everyone, I obviously meant all recognizable players. Of course a player named "davidprogamer3210" isn't going to know. But an actual player of the game, like "(JOY) Blood", or "(JOY) Vitamin E", etc.
The tutorial teaches the basics of the game, the basics, not every game teaches you the game to the full extent, so obviously you must play to learn. I've played with players that were once new, but by the end of a month or 2 they could uphold their own skill, and play comfortably.

Now I've also played with players that I'd see one month, as a new player, then they wouldn't play for a few months because they weren't interested in the game, then when they played again they were still new players.

" just because "everyone" is using it doesn't mean a) they're fine with it," - If evey player wasn't fine with it, they'd complain. Nobody has but you jajaja
"b) it's fine from a balancing point of view" - Hjarpe's fine with it lol
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Post by Gurt » Sun May 01, 2016 7:59 pm

Ultimate wrote:Hmmm, I don't know, it's not like the players actually complain while playing about how much they hate the "fixes".
"This update sucks.... This update wasn't needed, etc."
Hell, some players even concluded, (not by me) "They did this update to shut Lunatic up".
We update what we feel is necessary. If someone can actually argue or show that something is a problem it can start some discussions, ideas and possibly adjustments to the game if Hjarpe and I feel the need for it. We never update the game in a way we don't want.

I think I have always seen someone comment about how bad each and every update is. :D
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Post by Scarface » Sun May 01, 2016 8:25 pm

k guyz letz git bak on topik

While I agree with Hjarpe that some exploitable things should be left in the game(like exploitable bots in original SF), things like these should be fixed(yeah I know that quote ''SFD isn't supposed to be fair) but letting a player to abuse that ''unfairness'' isn't good. Even camping, the most annoying thing in FPS games, has it's disadvantage: you can get killed from your back.

I have two solutions to fix this:
1)Player who does an attack in mid-air by dropping from an object, will have a 0,5 second cooldown. He can move, but he can't attack. Giving time to escape for attacker, while also giving time for attacked player to recover.
2)Making attacking player to enter full-kneel.
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KliPeH an Ultimate, stop arguing. There will be more people to come. And saying that you are playing ''too rarely'' to know the game is just dumb. Computers were meant to be used for work. You should always spend more time outside of a videogame. I agree with KliPeH for that.
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Post by Del Poncho » Sun May 01, 2016 8:51 pm

Scarface wrote: While I agree with Hjarpe that some exploitable things should be left in the game(like exploitable bots in original SF), things like these should be fixed(yeah I know that quote ''SFD isn't supposed to be fair) but letting a player to abuse that ''unfairness'' isn't good. Even camping, the most annoying thing in FPS games, has it's disadvantage: you can get killed from your back.

I have two solutions to fix this:
1)Player who does an attack in mid-air by dropping from an object, will have a 0,5 second cooldown. He can move, but he can't attack. Giving time to escape for attacker, while also giving time for attacked player to recover.
2)Making attacking player to enter full-kneel.
Again,I start by saying that my opinion may not be fully impartial,as I tend to fight like this a lot. And I mean A LOT.

As Hjarpe said, everybody can fight like this. There's nothing stopping you. And there are multiple ways to avoid/counterattack this if you dont want to. This is as fair as it can be.
A perception of your surroundings and a minimal idea of how to use them should be awarded. On the other side,a single,well timed punch can break this chain and turn the tables. It's a good risk/reward to me.
As it is now,almost everything in this game is counterable in some way,and I think there's a generically good balance in it. Remember that SFD is not made to be a melee only/gun only game.
Gurt wrote:I think I have always seen someone comment about how bad each and every update is. :D
That's me. That's always,sadly me. And periodically,after a few days of playing the new update,I think the exact opposite of what I previously said in those comments.
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Post by Ultimate » Tue May 10, 2016 10:39 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Scarface wrote: While I agree with Hjarpe that some exploitable things should be left in the game(like exploitable bots in original SF), things like these should be fixed(yeah I know that quote ''SFD isn't supposed to be fair) but letting a player to abuse that ''unfairness'' isn't good. Even camping, the most annoying thing in FPS games, has it's disadvantage: you can get killed from your back.

I have two solutions to fix this:
1)Player who does an attack in mid-air by dropping from an object, will have a 0,5 second cooldown. He can move, but he can't attack. Giving time to escape for attacker, while also giving time for attacked player to recover.
2)Making attacking player to enter full-kneel.
Again,I start by saying that my opinion may not be fully impartial,as I tend to fight like this a lot. And I mean A LOT.

As Hjarpe said, everybody can fight like this. There's nothing stopping you. And there are multiple ways to avoid/counterattack this if you dont want to. This is as fair as it can be.
A perception of your surroundings and a minimal idea of how to use them should be awarded. On the other side,a single,well timed punch can break this chain and turn the tables. It's a good risk/reward to me.
As it is now,almost everything in this game is counterable in some way,and I think there's a generically good balance in it. Remember that SFD is not made to be a melee only/gun only game.
Gurt wrote:I think I have always seen someone comment about how bad each and every update is. :D
That's me. That's always,sadly me. And periodically,after a few days of playing the new update,I think the exact opposite of what I previously said in those comments.
from the looks of it everyone wants a static game... jajjajajajaj
slow moving+limited mobility+"fixes nobody asked for, and used on a normal basis"=good
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