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Limited movement and tricks fix

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Limited movement and tricks fix

Post by Shock » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm

I would like to suggest some of ideas about improving game movement, since it feels really limited now.

1.Dive nailing from closest position is deleted
2.Gun cooldown can't be skipped now
3.Recovery roll after falling of melee also deleted


just imagine:

1.Nailings - diving into the wall in real life doesn't works like just sliding the wall down, firstly your opponent getting knocked of a wall and he takes damage, then you fall or slide down.
Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming, dive could be just forced, why it was deleted? The most annoying thing is that it worked before and now it just doesn't. It could have some cool down when player dives into the wall, so he will be able to escape spam.

2.Gun cooldown skipping - I'd like to suggest making it possible, but every time player skips cooldown reload, when he takes sniper rifle back, it must still be reloaded.

3.Recovery roll - why wouldn't player roll after he falls into stunning from punches or jumpkicking? He was able to do it, until it just were deleted from this game. It really helps you a lot when someone chasing you or while spamming, you can at least escape.

It's getting worse through the updates, i am sorry, i just still can't believe these good game mechanics became an dark side of Superfighters Deluxe.
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Post by Gurt » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:37 pm

1: I don't think we will bring back dive-into-corner-stunlock again. A thing in the past was that you could stunlock people by constantly diving them into a corner. If timed right your opponent couldn't do anything.

2: I don't know what you mean here with "gun cooldown skipping"? Skip cooldown between shots, like instantly fire all slugs in a shotgun? If you're referring to reloading, I don't think we will remove the time it takes to reload a weapon. You can still sheathe your gun and start attacking if that is what you mean with gun cooldown skipping - it's possible. Do you want that removed? If so, why?

3: The final hit in a three-hit-combo and jump-attacks from above will prevent recovery rolls if I recall correctly. Been discussions of why in the past. A super-short description: To prevent recover-rolls from being used offensively as a guaranteed hit in certain situations and to encurage three-hit-combos and jump-attacks even more as a disable/offensive move in your toolbox.

I think all these things have been like this since the release version of SFD as I can recall, so you're also probably referring to older - work in progress (Alpha/Beta - not final) - versions of the game.
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Post by KliPeH » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:44 pm

Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
1.Nailings - diving into the wall in real life doesn't works like just sliding the wall down, firstly your opponent getting knocked of a wall and he takes damage, then you fall or slide down.
Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming, dive could be just forced, why it was deleted? The most annoying thing is that it worked before and now it just doesn't. It could have some cool down when player dives into the wall, so he will be able to escape spam.
haha good mechanic go brrr
can't believe people actually want this ridiculous shit happening again
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:20 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:44 pm
Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
1.Nailings - diving into the wall in real life doesn't works like just sliding the wall down, firstly your opponent getting knocked of a wall and he takes damage, then you fall or slide down.
Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming, dive could be just forced, why it was deleted? The most annoying thing is that it worked before and now it just doesn't. It could have some cool down when player dives into the wall, so he will be able to escape spam.
haha good mechanic go brrr
can't believe people actually want this ridiculous shit happening again
Fake news.
Not sure why you are referring to Pre-Alpha footage. If you would test this in beta 1.02c (the last free version) you would know this isn't possible. There was added a cooldown to how often you can spam dive to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Also since Pre-Alpha map editor lacks player command trigger, try in map editor of Beta 1.02c to add for the CPU - "on player damage trigger -> Player Command trigger (roll)". The CPU can instantly roll after receiving the dive damage and thus escape this sort of "spam". This move made maps and melee more dynamic. It makes people think more about their surroundings and how to utilize them to their advantage. Just how melee should be.
Your leaving people with the wrong impression here.
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Post by KliPeH » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm

Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:20 pm
Fake news.
Not sure why you are referring to Pre-Alpha footage. If you would test this in beta 1.02c (the last free version) you would know this isn't possible. There was added a cooldown to how often you can spam dive to prevent this sort of thing from happening. [...]
What are you talking about? The OP is asking to bring this move back in current game versions specifically because it is no longer possible - after it was reported here and cooldown was introduced in Pre-Alpha 1.9.0 so it can no longer be executed. Did you read the main thread?

You can still dive people into walls and slam them for damage, you just can't stunlock them as you were able to do previously which seems to be presented as a problem here...
Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
[...] Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming, dive could be just forced, why it was deleted? The most annoying thing is that it worked before and now it just doesn't. [...]
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:19 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:20 pm
Fake news.
Not sure why you are referring to Pre-Alpha footage. If you would test this in beta 1.02c (the last free version) you would know this isn't possible. There was added a cooldown to how often you can spam dive to prevent this sort of thing from happening. [...]
What are you talking about? The OP is asking to bring this move back in current game versions specifically because it is no longer possible - after it was reported here and cooldown was introduced in Pre-Alpha 1.9.0 so it can no longer be executed. Did you read the main thread?

You can still dive people into walls and slam them for damage, you just can't stunlock them as you were able to do previously which seems to be presented as a problem here...
Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
[...] Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming, dive could be just forced, why it was deleted? The most annoying thing is that it worked before and now it just doesn't. [...]
Are you sure that's what he's talking about? Not trying to sound rude here, but as English isn't Shocks native language, so I or someone else might have misunderstood. I think he is referring to the normal wall nailing that we could do before the Steam version came out. The one that wasn't spammable. Why do i think this? Because he specifically writes "dive nailing from closest position is deleted". Since if you want to do a "wall nailing" (dive tackle slam) in this version, you have to do it extremely close to the wall, if the map permits it. So by removing "dive nailing from closest position" i assume he means that we can all pull the move of from further away again, just like we could in the old days.
Also in his video here: https://youtu.be/jmYs4QAjm2Q - footage from the closed beta, he states his disappointment that the entire wall nailing stuff was removed. Then later, when he finds out how to still do them he writes "Don't fix it devs... Please... don't.." So he obviously was pretty fond of this move back in beta 1.02c, when the cooldown nerf was already applied. In this video here (also beta 1.02c, not Pre-Alpha): https://youtu.be/d9gUf3Bi-3o - he demonstrates different moves with wall nailing, kinda leaves me to believe that he really did appreciate this move. Nor is he showing any magical "spam" as a trick in his video.
Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
Even if this movement was too cheaty by spamming
I think what he means by "spamming" is that ability a good player had back in beta 1.02c when you dive someone into a wall, Superpunch midair, then punch them on the ground twice (once when he is lying on the floor, and once when he gets up), then trick the opponent into blocking (as he's expecting a third punch incoming), sprint past opponent as hes blocking, and then again tackle him into the wall. By getting into a opponents head, or an inexperienced New Player, you could in theory keep bating them into blocks and keep diving them into the wall, until you effectively ran out of stamina, and finishing the last dive with a kick and follow up with a grab, then afterwards get a free throw effectively killing a full hp player. :ugeek: Personally i have only once in my over 600+ hours of beta 1.02c witnessed someone doing this move in action, absolutely destroying Capa in the progress. But that's not really spam, that's outplaying an inexperienced player and it's your fault if you die like this. Don't nerf players who are better then you, because you can't adapt to the same move over and over again. :evil: Usually people didn't have the patience to play their opponents like this and went for the standard two punches or a three hit attack (superpunch->kick->grab).
And in Shock's post in the Steam discussion: https://steamcommunity.com/app/855860/d ... 127663946/ - I will quote this line here:

"Why is SFD a bad game?
SFD itself is not a bad game, it would seem - a contradiction, but something is definitely wrong with it, that's what:
Minuses
"

(and here) "1.Game became more constrained after release" - He's comparing to how the game was right before it was released, and then when it was released. He's not comparing it to Pre-Alpha or anything like that at all.
"Even though diving into the wall with player spam move, it could be limited, but why should it be removed?" - Same thing i was talking about, how wall nailing was already nerfed before release, I'm just adding how it's your own fault if you get caught in a wall nailing loop. Because it's entirely possible to immediately get out of that situation. So therefore it shouldn't have been removed.

And finally what leads me to believe i understood it correctly is the fact that he liked the first post i wrote, so in that way he must agree with me that you are giving of the wrong impression. :)
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Post by Gurt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am

Looks like you can still wall-dive-spam another player and punch them if you land on a well-placed grabbable ledge along the wall you're performing this against and drop from it quickly as shown in the videos. I'm not sure we have any of these spots available in our official maps.

As game designers we do change and tweak moves if we consider them being exploitable in a way we don't find suitable in the game. It can be that the move is too easy to pull off with too little consequences or that the move is too hard to avoid if you get stuck in it. We have been doing this throughout the development of the game through feedback and playtesting. Exactly where we draw the line and what we consider being suitable for SFD is in the end up to us and how we feel about the move in question. There're a lot of variables to think about and how it all fits together with everything else.

Keep in mind that all changes throughout the years have been done for various reasons. We're trying to strive for a good overall experience for all players (not just the veterans).

To quote Hjarpe, which I think is a good reminder:
Hjarpe wrote:There's no point in implying that we are lazy or bad designers because we don't agree with your opinions about the melee.
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Post by Shock » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am

Feels like i just buried these good game mechanics by just recording a video about that, i won't look like an overprided person, but sometimes community needs attention in things you don't like. This is your game, you made it and this game was great, now by removing some of these movements it feels actually limited and this is what i wanted to say, i just wanted to share my opinion... Don't delete the usual nailing type please.
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Post by KliPeH » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:14 am

Shock wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am
Feels like i just buried these good game mechanics by just recording a video about that [...] Don't delete the usual nailing type please.
man singlehandedly destroys sfd's entire melee system (c. 2020, colorized)

On a more serious note, one feature I would love to see return is another way to negate fall damage. In the early Pre-Alpha versions of the game you could do so by kicking in mid-air right before you entered the flailing-arm state, which would give you a slight speed boost upwards and increase the distance from which you could fall. This was removed in 1.3.0, I believe.

Later, you could negate fall damage by pressing 'Down' to roll just as you hit the floor in mid-air while using slow-mo. This functionality was also removed in one of the updates later down the line.

I'd love to see a tertiary feature shipped with the game (the primary being diving and secondary being ledge-grabbing) that would allow players to navigate the map without taking fall damage - in a sort-of unconventional way. These were cool little "tricks" you could do to get out of sticky situations and outsmart your opponents.

Currently we have the fall-into-an-edge-of-an-object that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, which feels like an exploit. Rolling just as you hit the ground to avoid damage actually made sense back then and I'd like to see something like that return. Can't contribute much to the thread otherwise, I feel the melee system is beyond repair what with the current movesets and game rules we have.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:35 am

Gurt wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am
To quote Hjarpe, which I think is a good reminder:
Hjarpe wrote:There's no point in implying that we are lazy or bad designers because we don't agree with your opinions about the melee.
I'm not ever going to call you lazy person. Because you had to take your valuable time changing the code to remove certain moves in the melee system. I'm sure a lot of work went into that. If it was the right choice is another thing. I mean when you get so many posts on forums complaining about melee changes this whole time, you should get the idea.
https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=8&t=3423
https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=9&t=3309
https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=8&t=4060 (mentioning melee)

Now,
Gurt wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am
Looks like you can still wall-dive-spam another player and punch them if you land on a well-placed grabbable ledge along the wall you're performing this against and drop from it quickly as shown in the videos. I'm not sure we have any of these spots available in our official maps.
You do. I use them all the time. Just like old times. And i don't hear anybody crying about it if i manage to get in a 50+ damage combo. Especially on Rooftops 2. Nope, instead i get to hear this: "pro". And why do you call it spam? You get a two hit combo, same with dropping down a crate or a metal barrel, and you don't call that out for being spam. Even if camping around an object to circumvent cooldowns is the most overused and abused attack spot in the game. In fact Hjarpe had this to say:
Hjarpe wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:33 pm
"what you described is actually my favourite aspect of the melee... This is by design. You can do it and your opponents can do it, so what's unfair about it?
and more recently:
Hjarpe wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:39 am
My opinion has always been that it encourages you think about your environments in a pretty organic way.
Please don't tell me you are going to consider removing some of these spots now that you found out about the existence of a move more than a year after release...
Gurt wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am
As game designers we do change and tweak moves if we consider them being exploitable in a way we don't find suitable in the game. It can be that the move is too easy to pull off with too little consequences or that the move is too hard to avoid if you get stuck in it. We have been doing this throughout the development of the game through feedback and playtesting. Exactly where we draw the line and what we consider being suitable for SFD is in the end up to us and how we feel about the move in question. There're a lot of variables to think about and how it all fits together with everything else.
Yes the move was super easy to pull of. I admit that. And precisely for that reason New Players would pick this move up so quick, it would feel almost natural. Especially if they are coming in directly from Superfighters (flash). Look at the full picture here, this move is simple to pull of, however this simple move adds so many more possibilities in melee for tricks (using guns works too), just look at Shock's amazing video. That's why us veterans complain about how stiff and constrained everything is. Our moves are limited and possibilities greatly reduced, hindering a healthy, dynamic gameplay.
Gurt wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:20 am
Keep in mind that all changes throughout the years have been done for various reasons. We're trying to strive for a good overall experience for all players (not just the veterans).
Except that, it pains me to say it, what we are currently playing isn't fun for neither New players nor vetearans. The amount of New Players getting all pissed off at drones is pretty entertaining to watch (perhaps i should make a compilation), and the amount of Remove drones/Nerf drones posts i have read are numerous. This flying thing: "haha Drones go vr vr" is the most hated and unnecessary addition to versus, at least in its current state. I have already suggested an improved design on the drone complaint post: https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=8&t=3992, and that got more likes then the OP, until then stay in the campaigns. When normal people on Blurry's have to make up a rule like "no drones" and then people in general do agree to this, you know somethings wrong here.
Yeah, i get it. You want to make a game that's fun for both New Players and Veterans. But "fun" is relative. Quote Jaeky:
mgtr14 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:12 pm
"Fun is different for casuals and competitive players. Casuals may not get too deep into the game..."
And that's why you can't please both of these players at the same time. Not unless you physically create a barrier to prevent them from playing with each other. One version for Casuals (the one we are stuck with now), and one much deeper version, with a more fleshed out melee (like before), for players who want to get serious. I certainly would have gone for the latter.
Old SFD was pretty good for me as a New Player in my opinion (or maybe that's just Alpha nostalgia). When i was new, i had fun playing with other noobs, or with pros. I didn't mind getting destroyed in a fight. It takes some time getting used to, and then it takes even more time and mental dedication to improve. Adding in weapons like shurikens and incendiary ammo was pretty baffling to me. New Players die even faster now to these weapons, then they ever did before. Instead of easing up for New Players, they now have an even harder time to survive and get good. I mean they don't understand that they have to roll on the ground or they do it too late. Nor do can they find the block button in time to block a shower of shurikens. When they get a hold of shurikens they immediately start throwing them at other players without giving it any further thought. They will deal in some nice damage sure (1 shuriken= 17 damage), especially when they catch someone by surprise. But a Veteran player will be use all these weapons much more effectively, and more deadly then a New Player ever could. So actually now we have weapons that pretty much effortlessly kill New Players, and going on a killing spree over newbies ain't much fun, is it? No i don't think so, and the New Players decide to leave the server. If i had started playing in this version, i would probably have refunded or left the game within the first 100hours. Gone back to SF 1 or other games in Steam.
You see, you can't make a SFD-version that makes it easy for New Players to play. Not with all those buttons you have to learn, and all the timings and stuff + an insufficient tutorial: https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=9&t=3872. I find it ODD logic to nerf melee down (in order to greet newbies), which was the most fun mechanic in the game with a genuine skill ceiling + it was fair because everyone had access to exactly the same moves at all times (except for range and damages), and then go ahead and add really cheap weapons and items, which don't greet new players, nor are fun to use for killing people (or dying of).
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shock » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:57 am

KliPeH wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:14 am
Shock wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:51 am
Feels like i just buried these good game mechanics by just recording a video about that [...] Don't delete the usual nailing type please.
man singlehandedly destroys sfd's entire melee system (c. 2020, colorized)

On a more serious note, one feature I would love to see return is another way to negate fall damage. In the early Pre-Alpha versions of the game you could do so by kicking in mid-air right before you entered the flailing-arm state, which would give you a slight speed boost upwards and increase the distance from which you could fall. This was removed in 1.3.0, I believe.
Well, this is what i ACTUALLY meant, just returning the old game bugs, which were actually a cheaty game "feature". Feels like you just skipped sense of my suggestion meaning(your previous message looks like a silly post-irony and nothing more).
>.For me nailing never was a bug, because it was actually useful by every kind of player in whole community and if you're not playing that much, you could also beat skilled players, this is adds some mess salt in the game salad... I said that devs could listen to usual players and not only moderators or testers who actually don't play the game as often as some other players(I'm more than sure of that). We always had this movement as an working, realistic feature. Developers decided to delete it, well their choice... I just wanted to share my suggestion to return this thing to the game, but forced, alternatively to what we had before. But you're forcing me with your stupid attempts to make me look like an idiot. You know, i think devs made one mistake, have chosen you as an moderator. Also i never said that game Developers were bad designers of this game, who i am to say that? I never made a game before, i hope once i will.
KliPeH wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:14 am
Later, you could negate fall damage by pressing 'Down' to roll just as you hit the floor in mid-air while using slow-mo. This functionality was also removed in one of the updates later down the line.
I have one more working exploit like landing on an 90° surface + roll(make sure you fix that Devs(well if you can))
KliPeH wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:14 am
Currently we have the fall-into-an-edge-of-an-object that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, which feels like an exploit. Rolling just as you hit the ground to avoid damage actually made sense back then and I'd like to see something like that return. Can't contribute much to the thread otherwise, I feel the melee system is beyond repair what with the current movesets and game rules we have.
But look on this from the other side, with a lot of bugs and exploits we've been recording the funny videos about this game, some players were making the compilations of these actually funny things happening while round. And you know, i am not saying about these "serious" players, who never liked game bugs at all of their losing or whatever, well. This is what i wanted to say. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, but I can't keep it inside me anymore. In most of other things like judgement you were always right and fair enough, but sometimes you could try being just a usual dude, that haves fun.
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Post by Gurt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:54 pm

Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:you can't make a SFD-version that makes it easy for New Players to play.
And neither are we trying to make the game easy for new players. You should not interpret what I said as making it easy for new players. As you say, it's a lot to learn. You need to play in order to get good (I think that's true for most games). What we want to reduce is what we consider cheap moves that have little to no consequences that's easily repeatable and very hard to escape.

I'm not sure the current wall-dive-spam is easily repeatable now as it involves more input management to learn and master and doesn't work exactly the same as the old version (and you need the right wall). Besides, I can't recall any more topics about it so I guess it's in a fairly good place right now. I currently have no plans to remove it if that's the impression anyone got from my last comment. But just to be clear: I'm not ruling out to fix it in the future either if more feedback comes in about this topic.
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