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Planned feature: Special ammo

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Planned feature: Special ammo

Post by Hjarpe » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:29 pm

-Special ammo will modify your current firearm, much like the laser sight.
-When you pick it up, it refills your gun with special ammo. If your gun is fully loaded you get an extra reload.
-You will use the special ammo until your next reload.

Explosive ammo:
-Bullets do extra damage in a small radius.
-Bazooka rockets and grenades become explodier.

Incendiary ammo:
-Bullets set things on fire.
-Bazooka rockets and grenades spawn fire nodes on impact, flamethrower and flares spawn extra fire nodes.

Bouncing ammo:
-When a projectile hits a solid surface, it bounces off. Chaos ensues.
-Possibly limited to metal surfaces.
-A bullet can bounce any number of times for a few seconds, then it behaves normally.
-Should bazooka rockets, grenades and flares bounce at all? Discuss!
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Post by gwendalaze » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:47 pm

I'm rather concerned about how the flamethrower will behave when equiped with those...

About bouncing ammos, i feel like it should be so that every projectile should bounce of walls until a certain time limit, ie 3 secs (could be higher or lower, depending on the weapon) , so it would prevent bullets from bouncing eternally in tight spaces, while not using the arbitrary 'limited number of bounces' some games uses, that would find itself being restrictive in tight area or OP in large ones. Restricting bouncing to metal surface would make it useless since ~80% of most maps are made of concrete, dirt or wood.
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Post by Wizados » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:55 pm

Explosive ammo and Incendiary ammo is OK for me.
But Bouncing ammo? I dont like this idea...
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Post by KliPeH » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:08 pm

Hjarpe wrote:[...]
-Bazooka rockets and grenades become explodier.
[...]
-Bazooka rockets and grenades spawn fire nodes, flamethrower and flares spawn extra fire nodes.
[...]
I don't think absolutely all weapons should be affected by the upgrade. The bazooka or the grenade launcher don't necessarily need a bigger explosion area, or a flammable detonation; I'd use special ammo types on weapons that shoot regular bullets, not on any of the other "special round" weapons.
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Post by Hjarpe » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:15 pm

gwendalaze wrote:I'm rather concerned about how the flamethrower will behave when equiped with those...

About bouncing ammos, i feel like it should be so that every projectile should bounce of walls until a certain time limit, ie 3 secs (could be higher or lower, depending on the weapon) , so it would prevent bullets from bouncing eternally in tight spaces, while not using the arbitrary 'limited number of bounces' some games uses, that would find itself being restrictive in tight area or OP in large ones. Restricting bouncing to metal surface would make it useless since ~80% of most maps are made of concrete, dirt or wood.
I'm sure we discussed the max-bounces thing at some point and came to the same conclusion as you, but it must have slipped my mind. I edited it to say:
-A bullet can bounce any number of times for a few seconds, then it behaves normally.

The metal-only issue comes down to how arcade-y we want SFD to be. Metal-only might be too restrictive, making the bouncing ammo extremely situational. On the other hand, ammo bouncing off dirt and comfy chairs might stretch reality a bit too far. For a compromise, we could make projectiles bounce off all but the softest materials (dirt, leather/cloth, snow). Or maybe it all depends on the angle at which the projectile hits -- straight shots are absorbed, while glancing shots bounce, metal being the only material which deflects shots at any angle?

The flamethrower won't be affected by explosive or bouncy ammo at all, so there's nothing to be concerned about :)
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:59 pm

Can the flamethrower instantly disintegrate the wielder if he uses explosive ammo? /s

Bouncing bullets would be a great addition to the game. I'd say giving them an arbitrary amount of bounces before being regular bullets would be the way to go instead of having an infinite amount of bounces for a few seconds. Two or three bounces would suffice. I say this because if I'm trying to make an oddball shot off a far-away object, the bounce won't happen if the bullet doesn't reach the object in time. You also don't want all items to be effective in all situations - that's why the shotgun isn't great at long distance combat. Bouncing bullets infinitely for a few seconds will make some weird things happen in CQC, so if they were only able to bounce two to three times, it would take away a lot of the weirdness and keep the ammo type fair - I don't necessarily want to be in a tight location, but I don't want to be outside either.

How would magnums/snipers react to bouncing bullets? Do they still penetrate crates? Do bouncing bullets even deal damage to cover? If I have an empty M60 and pick up an ammo type with it, does it fully refill the weapon? Do explosive bullets perform knockdowns every shot? How does this balance out with automatics (it doesn't)? Can we modify throwables too? Imagine bouncy grenades/mines! Crazy possibilities for those weapons.

Bazooka/grenade launcher/flare gun probably don't need bounce powers, but that's not what we're talking about. Giving them bounce properties would allow both tactical/skillful gameplay, as well as some hilarious antics.

The flare gun + incendiary ammo should spawn fire as it arcs through the sky, with a bigger radius of fire where it lands.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:18 am

This would be a really big change to the game. I feel like some things would make the game too chaotic, although they sound fun (boomerang, jetpack, bouncing bullets). Now that lunatic mentioned, assault rifle with explosive ammo sounds really scary.

I think this needs a lot of planning and rules/exceptions. Maybe add a new weapon that has bouncing bullets, or restrict some ammo types for just some weapons:
-special ammos do not apply to bazooka, GL, flamethrower, flare gun and throwables.
-maybe add a new grenade type to the game which is bouncy
-explosive ammo not available on m60 (or only 30-50 bullets limit)
-bouncing bullets only available for guns with low damage per bullet (pistol, uzi, tommygun, etc). Imagine that on a sniper, shooting someone in a small room and missing. Maybe the damage is reduced each bounce?
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:29 am

I was thinking of lining up a longshot and bouncing a bullet off a barrel on Police station from the bottom floor to the roof. Bouncing bullets have potential and I like that.
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Post by Wozenbelt » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:24 pm

I think bouncing bullets are my favorite idea. They sound really fun to get hit by or to use. As far as bazookas and flare guns and such, I don't think bouncing shots would be a great idea. One reason for this is that it might actually be a bad thing for you to shoot at the ground beneath someone, only for the rocket to bounce off and not actually deal any splash damage to them. So, unless you got a direct hit, you would have a hard time hurting someone with your rockets. On the other hand, it might be easier to hit someone in certain situations if the rocket/grenade/etc bounced. It's just that bouncing ammo wouldn't be an objective upgrade for special weapons.
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Post by Noble » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:32 pm

These types of bullets are interesting, some are really chaotic for some types of weapons, even if the spawn rate are very low (if you noticed, a very large amount of items Planned Features have the spawn rate very low, and have so many items with low spawn rate it makes no sense, and makes several items not so special).

I really like the idea of bouncing bullets, I think it would be cool and increase the dynamism of the game and I agree with all the criticism about it in this topic but I think it would be cool if any bullet reflect in a certain type of solid tile or object, you know?

And I also take the opportunity to make a suggestion: RM, bullets that penetrate walls.
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Post by Hjarpe » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:11 pm

For me, the main consideration is what would be more fun. Bouncing GL and bazooka projectiles could be really frustrating when you want to blow up the ground at someone's feet - on the other hand, the chaos of those bouncing bombs could also lead to hilarity. Fire ammo turning the flamethrower into a SUPER flamethrower and the GL into a napalm launcher seems fun to me, more fun than if it did nothing to those weapons. The power of an M60 equipped with explosive ammo is indeed a terrifying thought, so we may have to lower the explosive ammo damage for automatic weapons. If the explosive rounds are extremely rare, however, it may be less of a problem.
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:50 am

I'm just trying to imagine explosive ammo in the Uzi, subgun, or the assault rifle. All of those weapons spawn frequently, and if they knockdown on every shot, I would imagine it would be a free kill with those weapons.
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:53 pm

Lunatic wrote:I'm just trying to imagine explosive ammo in the Uzi, subgun, or the assault rifle. All of those weapons spawn frequently, and if they knockdown on every shot, I would imagine it would be a free kill with those weapons.
I never said the bullets would knock you down. If anything, we could increase the crit chance slightly but I doubt we'll even do that. The boost in effectiveness will be significant but we don't want to go over the top.
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Post by Gurt » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:11 pm

Lunatic wrote:if I'm trying to make an oddball shot off a far-away object, the bounce won't happen if the bullet doesn't reach the object in time.
I don't think this is a problem at all. Bullets travel so fast that it reaches the end on any map within max half a second. If the bounce rule applies for the first 3 seconds any bullet has plenty of time to bounce around. We might have a combination-type of rules that bullets will stop bouncing after 3 seconds or after 10 bounces - whichever happens first. In that case bullets won't bounce around in tight spaces too much but still have time to travel around and bounce in open spaces for 3 seconds. These 3 seconds are affected by slowmo.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:22 am

Hjarpe wrote: I never said the bullets would knock you down. If anything, we could increase the crit chance slightly but I doubt we'll even do that. The boost in effectiveness will be significant but we don't want to go over the top.
General rule has been "if it explodes, it knocks you down". I jumped to a conclusion, but all the explosive weapons in this game crit already, so you can understand where I got the idea.
Gurt wrote:
Lunatic wrote:if I'm trying to make an oddball shot off a far-away object, the bounce won't happen if the bullet doesn't reach the object in time.
We might have a combination-type of rules that bullets will stop bouncing after 3 seconds or after 10 bounces - whichever happens first. In that case bullets won't bounce around in tight spaces too much but still have time to travel around and bounce in open spaces for 3 seconds. These 3 seconds are affected by slowmo.
So I have a 5 second slomo, and someone fires a bouncing bullet. If I pop slomo right as the bullet spawns, does that mean there will be the last two seconds of slomo where the bullet can no longer bounce? Or is it going to be handled like grenade timers are?
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Post by TheOriginalCj » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:50 am

Hjarpe wrote: -Bazooka rockets and grenades become explodier.
Here at Mythologic, we don't use proper words. Proper words are for real professionals.

I think bouncy special items would be absolutely hilarious. They really don't provide any strategic advantage, but I would kill to see you guys add bouncy flares, rockets and grenades.

Added in :
Hjarpe wrote: -Bazooka rockets and grenades become explodier.
Here at Mythologic, we don't use proper words. Proper words are for real professionals.

I think bouncy special items would be absolutely hilarious. They really don't provide any strategic advantage, but I would kill to see you guys add bouncy flares, rockets and grenades.
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Post by Gurt » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:12 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Gurt wrote:
Lunatic wrote:if I'm trying to make an oddball shot off a far-away object, the bounce won't happen if the bullet doesn't reach the object in time.
We might have a combination-type of rules that bullets will stop bouncing after 3 seconds or after 10 bounces - whichever happens first. In that case bullets won't bounce around in tight spaces too much but still have time to travel around and bounce in open spaces for 3 seconds. These 3 seconds are affected by slowmo.
So I have a 5 second slomo, and someone fires a bouncing bullet. If I pop slomo right as the bullet spawns, does that mean there will be the last two seconds of slomo where the bullet can no longer bounce? Or is it going to be handled like grenade timers are?
Handled like the grenade timers so these 3 seconds are in-game time which is affected by slowmo. I was thinking about adding that clarification before posting but I was like "Nah, probably not needed". :D The color on the bullets might be blue-ish instead of yellow/golden-ish when they can bounce to indicate the powerup. Explosive might be red-ish and so on.
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Post by Antwan » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:53 pm

It would be cool if there were poison bullets too.

Like: you're hit from it you're health gauge will fall (3 to 5 health) and after 5-7 seconds you are normal again.
And it will only be the first 3 bullets of you're gun that will have poison when you have the special ammunition.
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:31 pm

For all intents and purposes, fire and poison are nearly identical as they both have a drain on your health. While poison couldn't technically be removed like fire can be, I feel it would be too much to have an ammo type that automatically did some 20 damage on hit from damage over time alone.

That's just my thoughts, anyways.
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Post by Antwan » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:50 pm

Yeah, I forgot fire could do that. But poison sounds nice......I think.
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