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[DONE] Ability to grab enemies

Here you can see some of our planned features for Superfighters Deluxe.
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Re: UN-CANCELED: Ability to grab enemies

Post by Hjarpe » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:27 pm

mgtr14 wrote: Atleast Punching, Kicking, and Blocking atleast doesn't let me walk with my opponent and then throw him a " considerable distance " ( Longer than an uppercut?).
Forgot to mention you won't be able to move while grabbing someone. I've now added this to the thingy. Description.

As for the attack being spammable, that won't be the case. Doing it should be risky, and we'll tweak things until it's risky enough. For instance, I imagine a recovery time if your charge misses, comparable to a landing kneel. More than enough time for the other guy to retaliate. Add to that the 3 second cooldown we mentioned (which should only start once you've STOPPED charging or grabbing) and it's far from spammable. I also imagine recovery times to the throw, punch and kneel attacks, maybe long enough so that you can't follow it up with a combo. That depends on a lot of things, there are many variables.

We're not looking to make an overpowered attack here. Sure, IF you get grabbed near a pit or vat of acid you could get insta-killed. Is that necessarily a problem, or should you ask yourself "crap, why didn't I grab him first"?
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:49 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
mgtr14 wrote: Atleast Punching, Kicking, and Blocking atleast doesn't let me walk with my opponent and then throw him a " considerable distance " ( Longer than an uppercut?).
Forgot to mention you won't be able to move while grabbing someone. I've now added this to the thingy. Description.

As for the attack being spammable, that won't be the case. Doing it should be risky, and we'll tweak things until it's risky enough. For instance, I imagine a recovery time if your charge misses, comparable to a landing kneel. More than enough time for the other guy to retaliate. Add to that the 3 second cooldown we mentioned (which should only start once you've STOPPED charging or grabbing) and it's far from spammable. I also imagine recovery times to the throw, punch and kneel attacks, maybe long enough so that you can't follow it up with a combo. That depends on a lot of things, there are many variables.

We're not looking to make an overpowered attack here. Sure, IF you get grabbed near a pit or vat of acid you could get insta-killed. Is that necessarily a problem, or should you ask yourself "crap, why didn't I grab him first"?
Thank god for that and the tweaks, my problem was just that a grab could let you just throw your opponent VERY far away, making more distance from the ledge make the grab an instakill, this should cut this distance alot further.
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Post by Hjarpe » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:56 pm

Another small edit: When the grab-time runs out, you will drop the enemy instantly. The other system we proposed seemed needlessly complicated.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:06 am

Blocking will still be viable since a correctly timed block still swings the fight in your favor. It gives you enough time to score a counter attack. I fail to see how damaging someone while avoiding it yourself would be bad by any means.
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Post by Bash Kraken » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:06 am

I actually don't see getting grabs being truly "overpowered" in the presence of death pits. Jumpkicks have always been able to launch someone into a pit, but they can be countered by blocking (although you still stagger) or simply dodging. I feel the relation between grabs and death pits will be similar to this, as there will be a counter to a grab (punching) and dodging will also still be an option.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:17 am

I do hope we consider rolls as a decent dodge to grabs since it opens up some cool counterplay.
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Post by Evilsack » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:35 am

Imagine a backbreaker move... Imagine...
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Post by AWAOS-COLD ASSASSIN » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:39 pm

that's a good move for grabs in the game for helping melee but UN-canceled is well great so now can we get grabs in the Alpha version.
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Post by Gurt » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:18 pm

Lunatic wrote:I do hope we consider rolls as a decent dodge to grabs since it opens up some cool counterplay.
We have some planned countermeasures in case we think the grabbing gets too easy to pull of or if it's too easy to throw someone down a pit. Rolling might be too effective to counter a grab though - but a good counter if we need something very effective against grabbing. We will keep it simple at first and then add more countermeasures/rules against grabbing as we see needed.
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Post by Player1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:16 am

I believe this to be the perfect example of what grabs should look like in the game. As much as I don't want it

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Post by Splinter » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:56 pm

Sorry for the necro, but only now have I had time to read the entire thread, and all comments.

So, we will block in the beginning of the charge, and if we get punched, we cancel the grab but block the punch? But that would break the RPS system, since punches should be the counter to blocks. And I see some problems with block+direction, what if I want to block a bullet and run forward? I'll try to grab and get shot.

Why not use my idea? Press punch and block at the same time to charge/grab, like most fighting games. Honestly, I think it's much better than block+left/right.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:18 pm

Blocks drop instantly when punched. If you press block as someone attacks you, initiating a grab will cause yourself to be hit, and blocking the attack will drop your block so you can't just press forward to grab.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:05 pm

But read this quote:
Hjarpe wrote: you will begin to block immediately when pressing the block button, and for a certain time you will be able to charge by pressing the direction button - however, you won't be able to charge if you block an attack during this period.)
In that case, I can "spam" block safely and counter every move he makes. How? Because I can wait a moment, after my block, before pressing forward to perform the grab.

Block + (wait) + forward:
if he punches --> I blocked his punch (now I can't charge, but I can block again)
if he blocks --> I grab him
if he grabs --> grabs cancel each other out

The only thing I can't counter, is if he waits for my block, then throws the punch, but wasn't "waiting" our fake scissors? You all said you wanted a true, complete RPS system, but with the strategy I explained above, punches are not that good against grabs. The only solution I can think of is adding a very short delay to the block, say, 80ms. After 80ms, the block is performed. If I press forward before 80ms, though, the grab is performed instead. But I don't like the idea of having a delay to a defensive, reaction skill. Another possible solution, is pressing kick and punch at the same time to perform a grab, since they both already have a short delay.
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:50 am

I think we should wait for the move to be added before we start to speculate the problems it might have. We don't know how things will interact with each other until it's been implemented.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:05 pm

Lunatic wrote:I think we should wait for the move to be added before we start to speculate the problems it might have. We don't know how things will interact with each other until it's been implemented.
I honestly think its better to nitpick a bit on a feature that will be added, especially when we can see flaws on it already by looking at what the devs are planning. ( Walking while grabbing, using existing buttons to grab, etc ), we have removed many flaws that could've gotten into the game. And we could still have some problems slip trough anyways ( Remember when dropped weapons could stun/disarm/damage/kill when thrown weapons were added? ).
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Post by Lunatic » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:49 pm

Yeah, that's why we're playing the game in active development - so we can discuss potential problems with the game and discuss if they're as bad as we think or if there are decent changes to make it better. I don't think a handful of our guns perform as well as they should so I wrote some threads. I can't tell how grabs are going to turn out yet so I'm going to wait for release so I can properly playtest the move before I pass judgement.
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Post by Gurt » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:29 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Lunatic wrote:I think we should wait for the move to be added before we start to speculate the problems it might have. We don't know how things will interact with each other until it's been implemented.
I honestly think its better to nitpick a bit on a feature that will be added, especially when we can see flaws on it already by looking at what the devs are planning. ( Walking while grabbing, using existing buttons to grab, etc ), we have removed many flaws that could've gotten into the game. And we could still have some problems slip trough anyways ( Remember when dropped weapons could stun/disarm/damage/kill when thrown weapons were added? ).
The first idea is usually not the one in the final implementation. And we can't know for sure how some idea will interact with the rest of the game. If changes are needed after the initial release we discuss them and change as we see fit and best for the game. Grabbing will be no exception.
After some early internal testing we're testing to initiate the grab by pressing block and attack at the same time to make it easier to turn around and grab faster and to avoid accidental grabs when you just want to block at some direction.

Edit (2016-10-16)
We're now done with the first iteration of the grabbing mechanic and we will keep testing it for some time before the next update. As grabbing is a new feature there will probably be problems that we can't foresee at this moment. Maybe we need to adjust the distance you can throw other players or the time you can hold someone or add other mechanisms to protect you from being grabbed at all. We will let you test the grabbing first before we decide what's needed.
Kick to knee your enemy in the groin will be left out as we think the power attack will be enough. Granted that variation is good but we can always add it in later updates if we feel the need for it.
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:05 pm

I do hope you add it as it adds variation to the move and gives more control to the players. Knee to the groin is supposed to drop players at our feet - if we want to keep them close so we can keep up melee pressure then knee would be perfect since it drops them at our feet instead of giving them any distance. Unless the power punch goes practically nowhere, which would be fine since player throwing would probably be better for distance in all scenarios.
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Post by Gurt » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:10 pm

Knee to the groin can also be used to get some extra free hits on an already grabbed player and that's also another reason why we leave it out for this update. If you want to keep your enemy close you can simply just drop him with the drop key.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:05 pm

So I was thinking about what you said, Gurt, about how using Knee would let you get free hits. If the knee itself did low damage, expecting you to go for a hit (not two) would it work out better? If grabbing sheathes your weapon so you have to draw it again after the grab, you could make sure that the victim of the knee has enough time to get up and block if the attacker tries to draw their weapon after the knee to go for a hit. This way you control how much damage is done, and the flow of the fight becomes interesting: I grabbed my opponent and did some damage, do I maximize that or do I draw my weapon while I can still do so safely?
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