Hjarpe wrote:Won't it be fun when we add grabbing and it turns out to be shit!
Evilsack wrote:Damn was Hjarpe right.
I still look at this quote from Hjarpe as a joke, though opinion-wise, I can't help but feel how accurate it is. I was hoping to see more changes for the move, as it functions as less than it's intended purpose, though it seems the move is fine it's first iteration in eyes of the devs. It hasn't seen any changes other than an input change, and a couple of bugfixes. Why?
I think by pushing for grabs, we went for a particular route of block breaker and less a direct "this move beats blocks". Grabs definitely beat blocks but they're too slow to use properly. As grabs are now, changing just the speed would indeed mess up the delicate balance of the move. However, as they are now, no matter what you do, they'll always be imbalanced, giving a melee an instakill move dependent on positioning. I'm all for taking advantage of positioning, but considering the power it has, it really messes with melee and combat as a whole. I've made a handful of posts concerning the matter but I'd like to go over it again, hopefully raising some new points or shedding light on some areas that I believe really need improvement.
As odd as this might sound, I recommend that the ability to throw
living players be removed. No matter how you look at it, the distance that players can be thrown makes the move too convenient. Being able to toss someone that far makes positioning less important since players can be thrown far enough to take advantage of map elements more times than not. The only safe place to be grabbed is basically on a flat surface at the bottom of the map, near basically nothing, or in an area equivalent. However, we then have the power punch, that will deal 17 damage. 17 damage is pretty high, considering we have 100 health (6 grabs = 1 kill from full health, 5 grabs if you do a kick to combo into each grab). 17 is also how much damage a revolver shot does. The damage makes sense since you're trading the ridiculous potential of a throw, but it's still such a massive number.
Between throws and punches, it makes sense that grabs are so slow - they're incredibly powerful tools capable of ending someone very quickly. The problems come when you look at a handful of outside factors: Knockdowns can combo into grabs for free, with the victim being unable to do anything to escape. They can't jump, attack, or drop through a platform to get out of a grab once the knockdown has happened. They could tech backwards, which only works if there's open space near them, though it's difficult to pull off and the timing is narrow. I can respect this but it's still very easy to combo into a grab using a knockdown. Falling off an object and kicking/punching, or shotgun blast -> sheathe -> grab are fast and effective ways of scoring a very safe grab, which ruins the risk/reward of the slow startup and high damage potential. This alone makes grabs very imbalanced, but that's not the root of the problem - at least in my eyes.
The big problem is that grabs were meant to be a block breaker. They're too slow to start and use to effectively fulfill this function, and have a handful of arbitrary cooldowns (that still make sense given their power) that stop them from being effective at their original purpose. By making them faster (melee speed or even
slightly slower) and weaker (lower power punch to 10 damage, remove throws on living players, add knee (will describe below)) they can be used more for their original purpose while toning down their powerful attributes, make the combos less overpowered, and also make them more useful for defensive reasons (counter-grabbing to play defensive). Allowing players to throw
dead bodies allows unarmed players to disarm mines and position bodies on the map for use as meatshields later.
As for the knee, I was thinking that they could be added specifically to get a one-hit combo after the knee. The knee itself could do 1 damage, drop the victim on the spot, and leave just enough of an opening for the attacker to get one swing in before the opponent can block again. This move would get stronger depending on what weapon the attacker is wielding, but it would also remove the opportunity to push someone off a cliff with the power-punch. It still leaves a max damage of 16 (katana) when using a melee weapon, with fists dealing less damage than the power punch when used in conjunction with the knee. It would add strategic depth to your grab followup, while still not reaching all the way over to what grabs do now with one power punch. It's also a way to make up for the removal of throwing living players.
Alpha is the best time to be testing these experimental changes, while the game is still in testing and there's a large userbase playing the game to find exploits and give feedback for how it all interacts with each other.
EDIT: I really feel like I'm still not explaining it right. In the most basic form, I'm trying to say that grabs are too slow to come out to properly beat a block mid-combat. It can definitely happen, but it's much less likely to happen compared to other elements of melee. With their massive cooldown and slow startup, they're incredibly difficult to land, and this makes them less effective at actually beating blocks - even when you know someone is going to block. Being able to roll out of a block, and then jump out of a roll, gives players the mobility required to escape a grab with good reflexes. I support these actions, but as a whole it makes grabs ineffectual as a result. Speeding up grabs and toning them down as described above will benefit the move while bringing it more in balance with other factors of the game, while allowing them to be used more often for more reasons to new effect.
As a side note, I think another interesting idea for balancing grabs might be shortening their charge distance or changing their movement speed.