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[DONE] Ability to grab enemies

Here you can see some of our planned features for Superfighters Deluxe.
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Re: CANCELED: Ability to grab enemies

Post by Lunatic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:00 pm

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix ... mes#Punish
Here's another thread talking about punishing: http://www.gamefaqs.com/wii/928518-supe ... -you-do-it

Waiting for a block to end and then hitting someone is a punish. Punishing is typically reactive/defensive play, as you can not be aggressively punishing someone - unless you're already in the motion and they try to challenge you. Reactive play (He just blocked! I can hit him now) or defensive play (I'm going to wait until he does something to hit him!) is not aggressive play (I'm going to go over there and hit him!). Running up to someone to feign an attack is bait. If they block, you can punish. Baiting is still reactionary play, and reactionary = passive play. You aren't going all-out and beating the shit out of someone, even if you are timing your attacks. To beat a solid defense, you either need a better offense or you need solid reactionary play to overcome the defensive attacks.

Blocking is really good at reacting/playing passive. Blocking does nothing when I run up on someone, it doesn't put out damage on it's own. It's not an offensive tool. Hitting me for blocking is reactionary, you saw me block and you hit me after the fact. No matter how you word it, you aren't playing offensive. Nearly every move a player makes in a game can be categorized with those three terms: Passive, defensive, offensive. Offensive play needs a solid move to beat blocks and round out the everything, giving RPS a full cycle and not just RP. I have nothing more to say on the matter, really.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Iliyan » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:05 pm

TOTALY understandable to cancel the (Ability to grab enemies) good job i hope you cancell the bomerang too because real bomerangs are not a weapon its more like a stick that can kill a bird but it wont do nothing to a real person

bamboo is the sfd strongest matereal it can stop elevators. the legend says that super fighters have a secret untold code of honor that involves to never hit another fighter with a bambo stick because it coud kill in one hit and we know all that thats not fun or worse some say that it was used once by the first super fighter to create a black hole in the center of the univers with the bamboo stick.
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Post by [Failman] » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:21 pm

Ultimate wrote:lmao don't worry Hjarpe they're just caught in their feelings and getting insulted over a game. like for example when i wanted grenades to NOT hit the player, everyone was against it, and i got over it. i listened to the explanation (which i didn't like) but i got over it. i didn't like the throwing "system" and complained but got over it.
buncha babies if ya ask me ;) ;) ;)
Waaaaaah I'm gonna cry we can't grab our opponents no more. Pfft, ya right, we've also made suggestions that's been ignored and we're not crying but we are upset. Listen I've already said this before but grabs could really improve this game into a excellent experience. Right now the game isn't up there, yes it has its gimmicks and yes it has potential but if we don't focus on improving the parts that most people find inferior or unlikable then it will never reach its full potential.

I just can't see why you think grabs being removed would be a good thing. The current mechanics of melee are just frustrating and hard to get used to, currently it's not fun. The only person I can think of that has made melee completely unbeatable is Jin and he's scared that someone would steal that even though it's such a pain in the ass strategy to perform! I should know I fought him and attempted to imitate him where he made me promise not to try and imitate him again but in return he'd let me use one of his moves. I did promise him I'd never practice his strategy but I've always wonder why Jin would go to these length, personally I feel it's because he fears he won't be able to enjoy the game again and I don't believe the bullshit he gave me about him making the strategy so he should be the only one entitled to use it, if Jin was that shallow I would have already stole it. See your community actually wants to enjoy your game and we're desperately trying to get you to understand that we need to root out the things people don't find enjoyable, if we don't like it haven't we always told you that we didn't like it? Haven't we always bashed you guys because we felt this could of been better? Well we really think this would make the game better. Honestly my main reason for believe it would fix the Rock, Paper, Scissors is because it could balance the game out to a more fun level, especially if we could use players as shields for incoming projectiles to escape situations where you'd normally be without cover. Honestly all I can see in grabs are more variety and fun, like maybe we could grab airborne players such as friendly's and enemy's where friendly's would have they're momentum cut to a safer level allowing them to land safely while in contrast airborne enemy's would instead receive some serious punishment as reward for your well timed grab.
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:27 am

I feel the need to mention that more can be done to balance grabs than just "give it some simple counters". To stop people from spamming grabs, there can be a sizable cooldown if you miss (similar to how blocks have a cooldown if they "miss"). Grabs can have absolutely abysmal range that requires the player to be almost literally on top of their victim in order to connect. Perhaps give players a type of "kneel" if they don't grab someone, recovering from their brief charge in a way that can be punished. Initiating a grab can auto-sheathe the player's melee weapon, forcing them to redraw their weapon if they want to re-establish their melee range and damage superiority. When I say we have options, I mean we have options. SFD is dynamic, grabs don't have to be an exception.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Hjarpe » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:52 pm

Thought we'd let you know that because of some good points made in these discussions, we're strongly considering un-cancelling grabbing. We won't go into details now, but we see a lot more merit in the idea than we did when we canceled it. We've been having some in-depth discussions about potential problems - we'll share our findings soon so the public discussion can continue... ;)
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Post by Iliyan » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:47 pm

Hjarpe wrote:Thought we'd let you know that because of some good points made in these discussions, we're strongly considering un-cancelling grabbing. We won't go into details now, but we see a lot more merit in the idea than we did when we canceled it. We've been having some in-depth discussions about potential problems - we'll share our findings soon so the public discussion can continue... ;)
Along with what lunatic sead, i would like to add my idea and a proposition of synthesizing the hole idea of the "Ability to grab enemies" instead of "the impossibility to grab enemies" way do we not sustituate this idea for another one, let's make a grabbing ability that involves grabbing barrels,boxes, explosive barrels and enemy corpses. i think that this does not have the same revolutionary and maybe quite harmful impact on the playability of the game as "the canceled:grabbing ability", and that way maybe we can make up "this failure" by compensating it with this idea.
(also i think that the combination to triger the lifting should be down+D+A or as we had the trow ability button added maybe we can put it somewhere in a new combination for this lifting object ability)
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Post by Death_Hoop » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:52 am

I understand that this isnt "the holy grail of melee" but i feel like it could add a little more diversity to melee fights and tbh throws didnt take away soamming or improve melee theyre just another spammable move that has made me want to avoid melee fights all together because people just spam throws and win
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Post by Hjarpe » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:43 pm

Cancelling grabbing was a great learning experience! For one thing, we obviously underestimated how invested some people were in this feature. When we announced it, it got a generally positive reception but with a lot of scepticism as well, and rightly so. It's a big change with a lot of potential problems that we'd have to deal with. I didn't get the impression that anyone thought it was going to "perfect" the melee system or anything like that. Spice it up, sure - that was the intention. Given this, we assumed that people would be OK with us cancelling it (after the initial backlash) so we didn't make a big deal out of it. Turns out it was a big deal, though.

We've explained before that we don't change things because X number of people ask for it. It doesn't matter how many people are screaming at us, or how angry they sound, if what they're screaming doesn't make sense. So let me explain WHY we're un-cancelling grabbing.

Basically, we were sceptical towards those who said "grabbing would have completed the melee system!" because we never saw it that way. To me, it just seemed like an overreaction to something being taken away. On reading the more well-reasoned posts, however, we started to think they had a point. Maybe something is missing from the current system, and maybe grabbing is, if not the Holy Fucking Grail of melee design, a more fitting and many-sided solution to this problem than we thought.

The lack of a reliable, offensive block breaker is a flaw in the current system, and it might be the root of the "boring slapfight" issue. Direct melee confrontations have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic between attacking, blocking and waiting. It's an OK system, but not very satisfying since only one of the actions (attacking) moves the fight forward while the others slow it down. We've defended this in the past saying that the heart of the game is opportunism and using the environment to your advantage. If you're just standing there punching each other you're "doing it wrong". Which we still think, but it may not be an excuse to leave the melee as it is, because a lot of people DO play like that. The grab would make the average melee fight more witty, aggressive, and dynamic. It may also have the effect of making players more aware of their environment, since grabbing someone gives you the opportunity to throw them left or right. For the players who are already using the game's systems creatively, it should open up even more fun solutions (holding someone over a fire until he bursts into flame, for instance!)

What sealed the deal was probably the following idea: Instead of holding down the F key to charge, the charge should be initiated by pressing the block button and a direction button simultaneously. This quicker input method will make the attack more viable in the middle of a fight. (We won't add a delay to the block to accomplish this - you will begin to block immediately when pressing the block button, and for a certain time you will be able to charge by pressing the direction button - however, you won't be able to charge if you block an attack during this period.)

Though our next big feature is going to be the account system, you can consider grabbing un-cancelled and scheduled as the last big feature before alpha. But you should also understand that we didn't change our minds because of rage posts. You can thank people like Lunatic whose posts gave us a new perspective on the melee and helped us reach this decision.

Won't it be fun when we add grabbing and it turns out to be shit! :D
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Post by Lunatic » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:25 pm

Hjarpe you're scaring me with that last line

I'm glad to hear that things are working out, and I'm glad we finally got it in words what we were (probably) trying to say from the beginning, haha. Like you said, only one of the options in RPS moves the fight forward, which is something I feel like I was trying to communicate but just couldn't say in that fashion.

I'm very excited for the future, and can't wait to buy the game. Having a job is cool.

The way you described the charging/grabbing mechanic seems interesting, which fits in well with what SFD is. Suppose I'm curious about it - pressing block and a direction key at the same time? There are a lot of factors that make movement work. If I'm already holding a direction and press block, will I grab in that direction and skip blocking entirely? If I'm low on health and use slomo, I like to run away and turnaround block on my exit so that I take no damage. Should I worry about grabbing backwards instead? I was thinking that, instead of just any direction after blocking, it was directly forward - in this fashion, blocking and then turning around with it would allow you to still cover your ass, and pressing that direction again quickly enough would grab if that's what you were trying for.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Sh4d0w » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:25 pm

That's good that the grabs are un-cancelled. I was just wondering how SFD will be if there were no grabs.
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Post by Hjarpe » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:30 pm

Lunatic wrote:The way you described the charging/grabbing mechanic seems interesting, which fits in well with what SFD is. Suppose I'm curious about it - pressing block and a direction key at the same time? There are a lot of factors that make movement work. If I'm already holding a direction and press block, will I grab in that direction and skip blocking entirely? If I'm low on health and use slomo, I like to run away and turnaround block on my exit so that I take no damage. Should I worry about grabbing backwards instead? I was thinking that, instead of just any direction after blocking, it was directly forward - in this fashion, blocking and then turning around with it would allow you to still cover your ass, and pressing that direction again quickly enough would grab if that's what you were trying for.
You'll have to re-press the movement key, that much is for sure. We'll try to make sure it doesn't interfere with the blocking too much. Maybe if you press the movement key before the block key, you turn around and block without charging, but if you press the block key first, you turn around and charge. We'll have to test before we decide.
Sh4d0w wrote:I was just wondering how SFD will be if there were no grabs.
Much like it is now, I guess.
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Post by Powerbombs » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:14 pm

We're screwed.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:52 pm

There is no way i'm going to let grabbing be able to catch someone after a block before they can punch.

You say you can walk and punch to throw them a considerable distance, this can just end games because the grabber read a single block. Pits, Barrels, Acid, Large falls, and they just land in those unwillingly because a block was baited out of them. Even baiting out a block is pretty easy. Just run up to them and then start the grab, they will think you're running in for a punch.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:15 am

mgtr14 wrote:Even baiting out a block is pretty easy. Just run up to them and then start the grab, they will think you're running in for a punch.
That's where mindgames and tricks come into play. We'll see more diverse play. Someone runs up to me, maybe I'll start to punch instead so they don't grab me. If I think they're going to attack, I'll block. If I think they're trying to block an attack, then I could grab and beat them at their own game. That's rock paper scissors for you.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:28 am

Lunatic wrote:
mgtr14 wrote:Even baiting out a block is pretty easy. Just run up to them and then start the grab, they will think you're running in for a punch.
That's where mindgames and tricks come into play. We'll see more diverse play. Someone runs up to me, maybe I'll start to punch instead so they don't grab me. If I think they're going to attack, I'll block. If I think they're trying to block an attack, then I could grab and beat them at their own game. That's rock paper scissors for you.
Sure, im in for an RPS system but i wouldn't let the opponent ever win with scissors when im near a ledge. That's (most of the time) a complete instant kill. I feel like most players won't even risk blocking by then because that could just kill you off, (possibly) resulting in one option not being used because of the risk that comes with it. I would happily be hit once instead of dying without a chance to do anything.

Although, i could just jump over them. But if that is somehow not an option then i will never block in such a situation.
Last edited by mgtr14 on Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:55 am

Well yeah, some moves will be better depending on the situation. If you're with a team, attacking will be better because you can corner and lock someone down for a quick kill. Blocking is great with slomo because you have plenty of time to react and escape. Grabs will be good in their own situations, it's the nature of a dynamic game. That's the beauty of it too, we'll have dynamic ways to counter grabs. The game will only get better with more options.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:51 pm

Lunatic wrote:Well yeah, some moves will be better depending on the situation. If you're with a team, attacking will be better because you can corner and lock someone down for a quick kill. Blocking is great with slomo because you have plenty of time to react and escape. Grabs will be good in their own situations, it's the nature of a dynamic game. That's the beauty of it too, we'll have dynamic ways to counter grabs. The game will only get better with more options.
I still wouldn't like that idea of grabs being an instantkill in MANY situations.
Punches makes you have to uppercut someone to throw them somewhere, but they will block and attack or just stagger. Kicking makes them stagger but it can be blocked. If they do a divekick, roll and block. A jumping kick is a bit hard to pull off correctly ( I've had people smash/block/punch at the right time ) and just get a small combo on me. Blocks just block your opponents attacks, nothing else.

Atleast Punching, Kicking, and Blocking atleast doesn't let me walk with my opponent and then throw him a " considerable distance " ( Longer than an uppercut?).

I would rather have max-speed running punches go trough blocks and knock them down on the spot, and add acceleration to running.
^ This encourages fighters to move around more, makes running from gunners harder and doesn't give the player the opportunity to just instakill the opponent because he read a single block. Altough i haven't thought of all the possibilitis and faults, testing this in any way would be amazing.
Last edited by mgtr14 on Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Del Poncho » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:27 pm

Yeah I still don't see how insta-kills can be preventable with this kind of move. It's seems a bit unfair and spammable.

For what I understood,if you get hit in the first phase of "charging" a grab,you just block...So this isnt even a risky move to use,and can be spammed without many consequences.
Maybe if getting hit while doing/charging a grab would cause a direct fall,instead of a normal punch-stagger,we could make this move more risky.

Anyway,I don't think that this game has enough commands to justify "button combos" such as Block+Direction. There are still plenty of buttons in the left utilized are of the keyboard!
Things like this tend to get messy,and may cause involuntary grabs when,for example,trying to block a launched object while moving.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:37 pm

People only block on reaction now because blocks are hard to beat. Imagine a world where you just don't know what they're going to do. If someone runs up and punches once, they could try to grab you next or punch again. If you block and they grab it's over, and if you try to attack while they plan to keep attacking they'll hit you instead. People will become more opportunistic, so you'll need to anticipate when players are looking to throw you off a cliff and work on not getting grabbed. It'll be a different game - I'm near a cliff? Fuck blocking, I need to push this guy's grabby hands off me.

So dash attacks beat blocks. You can dash back and forth and attack at random, beats blocks with an instant knockdown. That means I can crouch and get another attack! Sounds kinda busted already. Two katana attacks is 30 damage, and then I can dash back and do it again! God forbid I throw my weapon too.

I think the creativity from the Mytho devs will stop the mechanic from being too crazy, and that's where our testing comes in to make sure it ends up as polished as the rest of the game. We survived all sorts of changes, this one will be a blessing, I promise. Unless Hjarpe makes it shit on purpose :^)
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:21 pm

Lunatic wrote:People only block on reaction now because blocks are hard to beat. Imagine a world where you just don't know what they're going to do. If someone runs up and punches once, they could try to grab you next or punch again. If you block and they grab it's over, and if you try to attack while they plan to keep attacking they'll hit you instead. People will become more opportunistic, so you'll need to anticipate when players are looking to throw you off a cliff and work on not getting grabbed. It'll be a different game - I'm near a cliff? Fuck blocking, I need to push this guy's grabby hands off me.

So dash attacks beat blocks. You can dash back and forth and attack at random, beats blocks with an instant knockdown. That means I can crouch and get another attack! Sounds kinda busted already. Two katana attacks is 30 damage, and then I can dash back and do it again! God forbid I throw my weapon too.

I think the creativity from the Mytho devs will stop the mechanic from being too crazy, and that's where our testing comes in to make sure it ends up as polished as the rest of the game. We survived all sorts of changes, this one will be a blessing, I promise. Unless Hjarpe makes it shit on purpose :^)
But, this still makes people NOT block, as it is still VERY risky. If a grabbed player can possibly die or get comboed after being grabbed, then they would just rather not block and instead punch or kick, or even run away. The problem with this is that grabbing does maybe a bit too much damage in general, Groin kick or punch? Damage + kicking afterwards if possible,or just killing them off. I would ALWAYS take punch instead.

IMO i think that the grab should only be on the spot where you grabbed your opponent and you could punch or kick but not throw them THAT far.

As for dash attacks, what if the user suffered a small cooldown afterwards, small enough to let him kick the one who got hit and big enough to punish him if he missed? And they should do slightly less damage than a punch, and don't forget that you need full/nearly full speed if we will have accelerating sprinting.

For beating it, either jumping or running back yourself. We need this to knock down runners and (maybe, if wanted) go trough blocks.
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