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A step towards a better community: Introducing the Scrub

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A step towards a better community: Introducing the Scrub

Post by Lunatic » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:37 pm

If the title caught your interest at all, you're already curious as to what the hell it meant.

I've been trying to make this point here and there but have never truly done it to the extent I've wanted. It's an important point to make for this community due to the very common problems it often has: Calling certain tactics cheap or unfair. I'm sure we've all heard the cries of "Camper!", "Runner!", or my favorite, "Spammer!". People that use "cheap" weapons like the bazooka or grenade launcher are often denounced as well, or straight-up kicked or banned from servers. Jesus christ.

This is something I read recently that sums it up well.

In games in general, we're fighting to win. There is no arbitrary ruleset, no forced "melee" or anti-running measures. The game does not know who's "being a noob", only who's winning. This is something we need to set straight now as we go into the future. I'm quite tired of these complaints, not because they're bothersome but because it grows repetitive. Doing this kind of thing just makes you the Scrub.

Please don't be the scrub.

If the quality of this book is maintained throughout, I'd recommend buying it. I've read several pages and it seems very well written. It even draws from The Art of War! Good stuff.

Moving forward, these tactics can be considered "cheap". He talks about advantages and disadvantages, and when it's best to wait and whatnot. I think this is akin to both running and camping. If I'm low on health or ammo, or my opponent has a powerful weapon I don't want to tackle head-on, I should be avoiding the disadvantage until an advantage comes around - aha! That medkit I need, that assault rifle I can use! There are countermeasures to camping - cover has health and can be destroyed, explosives and fire hurt through these things, and sometimes a swift approach will force the opponent to use different options, like running.

Countermeasures to running are a little bit different. Even with stamina turned on, it's near impossible to really catch up to someone and force them to confront you (looking at you, melee). There are plenty of ways that could balance this that I hope the devs will come to consider in time. For now, we need solid counters against running (and gunning). Unfortunately, the only countermeasure I see is more gunning. There's surprisingly little counterplay in terms of mechanics at hand, but instead the counterplay comes solely from the items gained. If there was more diversity in melee and more options to choose from, we'd have spicier and more enjoyable melee combat. My jab no longer beats airborne opponents? I have a swaggy new uppercut, though! My enemy keeps blocking my attacks? A grab will cut through that! My opponent keeps running away? A dash attack can knock him off his feet! Unfortunately, due to a lack of these tools, we're forced to resort to shooting people in the back as they get away since it's the only way to reliably net damage on our foes.

Just the same, gunning doesn't have any real "get off me" bursts to keep itself going, but that's ok for now since it doesn't really need them. Having kicks available 24/7 means that at any time, someone can use a kick and potentially end a game, depending on environment. This is ok since jumpkicks have an enormous cooldown that is borderline ridiculous. No, the issue is that running is too good since there's currently no way to out-speed your target to catch up to him, and there's no way to outlast your opponent with stamina due to there not being differing stamina regeneration levels for gear. These changes alone would help balance the game.

The only real way to counter running and gunning is gunning itself. If your opponent refuses to let you get close, or constantly outruns you, then you'll have to sit back and line up shots to deal the damage you need when you can. Item spawns are random! They might randomly get a +50 or bazooka, and there's nothing you can do to control that. The best I can tell you is to either camp it out or run it out, just like they were doing to you. You can hardly ever force someone into a scary melee situation, as it also puts you at extreme risk as well.

In a world about winning the game at all costs, using all the tools available in the game, it's up to the players to help improve the meta and show others the best way to combat certain strategies. I like to use grenade baseball to hit far-away targets out of a camping spot, or when they sit still for a moment since I'm not pursuing any more. I like to put grenades next to portals and mix up opponents by either kicking it, running off, or swapping the side I was on to get a quick kill. And sometimes, if a player is being very defensive with a weapon like an M60 - or even a simple Uzi, I'm never truly inclined to approach. Remember this simple rule: He who has stage control has power. If you can sit out in the open without fear, you can gather more item drops and increase your odds of winning a lot. If someone sits in the corner, they hardly have 5% of the map, while you get a good, safe 70% that they can't shoot and they refuse to move. You can just keep breaking boxes and keep getting drops until you get something that will force them out of their hole - a molotov, or a bazooka, or maybe just a simple AR (the best standard weapon in the game, right next to the Tommy now).

Time outs are never wrong, either. If I had to set up competitive rules, right here right now, then I'd base them off traditional fighting game rules: Whoever has the most health at the end of the time limit is the winner. If I have more health and someone is camping hard, I can just wait the timer out. Games like Smash Bros and Street Fighter have time limits because players can camp and play defensive to force a time out and take a technical win because sometimes, that's the best thing you can do. And if winning is always the goal, do the best you can to ensure that victory! I've seen the devs denounce letting a game time-out before, but don't let that distract you: Winning is key.

Don't be a scrub, everyone. Wash your mind clean and start anew. No more name calling, no more "codes of honor". Just a simple goal: Win. Do whatever it takes, don't let anyone get in your way! Be a good sport before and after the match, perhaps, but go for the win once it starts. Most importantly: Take your losses in stride and get better. git gud. Become the next SFD Legend.
13 x
Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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Post by CCUUBBYYEEEE » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:34 pm

Originally posted by Lunatic
Please don't be the scrub.
Preach! Preeeeeeeach, brother! This really needed to be said. All the stupid people with the stupid excuses about why they're too stupid to win and why the other guy is stupid because the other guy killed him. Ugh, it just makes my brain hurt. Stop being stupid!
2 x
:mrgreen: Long Live SUCK :mrgreen:
Originally stated by Del Poncho
Killing is an art,and this game is your canvas.

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Post by Scarface » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:13 pm

True words. I also read Introducing... the Scrub article. Yes, you are playing to win, but from that article quote “Play to win, not to do ''difficult moves.'' makes me think: Scrubs play for ''fun'', they have their own mental set of rules, and if someone disobeys them, they call him ''camper'' etc. Am I a scrub if I play for fun, but do not have any mental ''rules''? I usually fight for fun, trying my own techniques and making new ones, playing with Box2d physics engine, laughing if some player got killed because he has taken cover under an explosive barrel and barrel exploded. SFD is not a competitive game like CS:GO, where everything is balanced, even the weapon damage is not random. There, you actually play to win, because you know you will get something(skin drop, extra money etc.). In SFD now you play for fun, or entertainment. There isn't any unlockable items or stuff that would encourage you ''play to win''.
1 x
Decisions, decisions.

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Post by KliPeH » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:34 pm

Good read. It saddens me to know that the people who need to be reminded about the goal of the game the most are the ones who won't bother to read such a long thread, or even register an account on the forums. Perhaps they won't even understand it, as most of the name calling I see is in Russian. Hire a professional to translate your thread to Russian and Portuguese? :^)

While we're talking about different playstyles and tactics, I would like to voice an opinion regarding the melee VS. ranged weapon argument, one that I constantly see come up around the Discord group and among SFD veterans in general.
Lunatic wrote:The only real way to counter running and gunning is gunning itself. If your opponent refuses to let you get close, or constantly outruns you, then you'll have to sit back and line up shots to deal the damage you need when you can. Item spawns are random! They might randomly get a +50 or bazooka, and there's nothing you can do to control that. The best I can tell you is to either camp it out or run it out, just like they were doing to you. You can hardly ever force someone into a scary melee situation, as it also puts you at extreme risk as well.
Many people claim that ranged weapons are the winning card and somehow the only way to win an SFD match. Furthermore, melee is a "non-existent" part of the game, or an underdeveloped one in comparison to guns, and that it is inferior to "running n' gunning" to a point where using melee won't win you the game most of the time (in contrast to ranged weapons).

I disagree. Keep in mind that I do so while playing with stamina OFF, and without a time limit on my games. The time limit isn't necessary to finish a game quickly, and the stamina is way too restrictive when it comes to pulling off a good play or having some fun. At any rate, I would like to explain myself;

I feel that the claim that SFD favors a ranged playstyle over a melee one, or that it's impossible to win with the latter, is completely false. Ranged weaponry and melee weaponry are (more or less) equal;
  • Both need a simple 3-button setup to operate (aim/shoot/reload | punch/kick/block).
  • Both use a limited resource that renders them inoperable if exhausted (ammo/stamina).
  • Both have straight-up stat upgrades (Tommygun to MP5 to M60, fists to wrench to hammer/machete).
The problem is, both actually need an additional resource to be used effectively - stamina. And while ranged weaponry doesn't require stamina to be used (since it is ranged), and uses stamina as an additional evasive option, a character focused on melee will be forced to use both if they choose to take an offensive approach. The problem with THAT is, of course, that the less stamina you have, the less effective your playstyle is. Ranged weaponry does not have that kind of con, and to balance this the infinite stamina cheat comes into play.

Infinite stamina shrinks the range disadvantage that melee weapons have by giving the player limitless movement (and eventually attack) capabilities, and makes them more equal to the ranged-weapon player. "You can stand there and shoot at me, but when I reach you you're in trouble", it says. This results in one of two things happening:
  • 1) Either the ranged guy takes his shit and runs the fuck away (seeing a guy with a hammer charge at me has that kind of effect), making the hunter the hunted and swinging the game back in the melee user's favor, or
    2) The ranged guy takes his melee weapon out and engages in melee combat, which is STILL the favorable situation for the melee user as both now fight on "equal" terms rather than him being shot at with no way to fight back.
Let's take situation #1, as #2 is probably the preffered result here: varied combat that forces players to judge their situation and act accordingly, resulting in a more interesting/fair(?) fight.

People often have a problem with "runners" - other players who solely use ranged weaponry, taking off once the situation gets heated getting into the melee-combat area. The general claim is that runners are impossible to reach or that they can escape melee combat easily, even more easily once infinite energy is turned on. Now, I don't know what YOU do when you're holding a long melee weapon and the person you're facing turns their back to you and runs, but I propose two methods of actions:
  • 1. Chase them. No, not simply running after them, but REALLY try to use the surroundings to your advantage. Close enough? Swing your weapon to stop them dead in their tracks. Going up platforms? Jump and slam them to delay them, then try to continue a combo and stunlock them or force them to fight you. Area with lots of different props? Time your jumps properly and try to move as swiftly as you can so when they get stuck you can use that time-window to strike. Ladders? Jump on them rather than simply climbing up, and kick every once in a while to get a little boost. Exploit ledge grabs and platform/prop combinations to get to your opponent faster than they can run away, and corner them to make them fight back or die.

    2. Gear up. Chase them to a crate - if they stop to break it, attack them. If they pass it, take a break to check what's inside. Set your aim on more crates, rather than reaching the opponent right here and right now. Heal up, or try to find a ranged weapon with which you'll pick them off later on. Find more equipment that'll help you engage them once again and win the fight, even if it no longer involves melee weapons.
The ranged weapon arsenal contains weapons that the melee weapon one does not - big gamechangers such as the bazooka, the grenade launcher and the flamethrower. There is no giant battleaxe or lazer sword that cut fighters in half for an instakill, so ranged weapons are usually also the ones which end games with the help of the weapons I mentioned above. With that said, it does NOT mean melee weapons are useless, or that a melee-focused playstyle is inferior. I genuinly believe that my wins in all rounds are split equally between melee brawls and ranged weapon firefights.

Maybe melee is not as complicated as it could be, with all the combos and moves, but nor is ranged combat with attachments and melee-combat potential. Fighting up close is WAY too far from being as useless as some people make it out to be. You either suck at what you do, or haven't fought me yet. I encourage everybody to turn /ie on in their games and remove the restrictions that running for 20 meters and getting "too tired to punch" with stamina on has. Kiting is effective, but so is a fast aggressive advance with a melee weapon at hand.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

I guess I could share something I read, I think it was on a League of Legends article. It was about "OP" or "Overpowered". What is OP? Some people think that "OP" is everything that's too strong. If that was the case, bazooka, grenade launcher and flamethrower would all be OP, but I don't think any of them are OP at all.
In that article, they said "OP" is something that makes the player feel like: "Well, there was nothing I could do about that.", "That makes no sense." and "That's not fun to play against". While facing a bazooka, if I lose, I think "I didn't ride the rocket very well" or "Well, ok, he got lucky this round, but he won't next round", or at least I think it was fun trying to run away from the guy, dodging some rockets.

An example of something OP: a weapon/detonator that has 0,5% chance of spawning, but gibs every player in the round. That just doesn't make sense, there's nothing you can do about it, and it's not fun to play against that, even being rare.
3 x
Hold your breath.

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Post by Lunatic » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:23 pm

KliPeH wrote:LOTS OF THINGS I WANT TO ADDRESS AND TALK ABOUT
Gunning is the best, sure-fire way to deal serious, consistent damage, as well as putting pressure on and otherwise dealing reliable damage. Melee takes time to come out and is easily blocked. Hell, it's easy to see coming, too. Gunning, however, deals more damage, has infinite range, and can deal damage quickly and even unexpectedly. Melee has GUARANTEED DOES NOT FAIL WON'T BE HURT DURING blocks, while dodging won't say the same - there's always a 10% chance you'll get hit during a dodge, and this killed me twice just today! You can also block bullets, but even then: your head and feet are exposed during a block and can still be shot, and you can't block bullets that come from above or below you without forcing them to angle off your front! This kind of problem further shows that gunning has more benefits and is more reliable than melee is now.

I'm not saying melee is without it's uses, it does have strategic and important use, but it's so much more situational and often so dangerous that a smarter move was always to not approach and to not try, not without a katana anyways.

Infinite energy is a cheat, for lack of better term. It's a Gurt-described debug feature, not really a way to play the game as intended. People play with it on, and I respect that. There are maps I have where IE is fun and good for the game. However, in vanilla SFD, the way the game is intended, it is not beneficial to the game or the players. Infinite energy means that I never have to stop running and can always pull away from all engagements without fear of running out of stamina and getting caught. If your argument is to use little advantages to catch up to me, then I think you fail to understand that I'm already using these advantages to get away. Top level play is taking advantage of every little inch you can squeeze ahead of your opponent, so if I'm doing all the things you're trying to do, you won't ever be able to catch me. As long as it's an option for you, it's an option for me. Infinite energy also allows a wonderful exploit involving walldives - I can keep walldiving you into eternity because there's NOTHING you can do to stop me, and I can mix in falling attacks as well to eventually kill you!

Stamina being on forces players to manage their energy so that they can't be caught. I used to get caught in melee that I didn't want to deal with because I sprinted everywhere. Now I just jog everywhere and sprint when I find it necessary. People can't catch me, I'm never up shit creak without a paddle, and I'm always ready to go. Stamina forces players to be smart and manage a resource, it involves focus and tactics. If we want energy to be better for melee, then we need to remove stamina drain on attack for melee so it can keep up. We also need to limit stamina in some fashion for gun-wielders to nerf running. These changes alone will keep the game in a balanced state.

As you've said before, melee doesn't have big gamechangers. With the addition of a sledgehammer that has a lot of windup, or the chainsaw we'll be getting later, we'll see melee reach a better point, which this game desperately needs if it plans to have any type of competitive community. If this game is all casual, all the time, then so be it, but I find that disappointing with the insane potential it has to be so much more.
4 x
Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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Post by M_M_M » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:20 pm

typical runner excuses..........
0 x
hello yes

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Post by Lunatic » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:24 pm

You're kidding, right?
Please tell me you're kidding.
This is the exact kind of shit I'm talking about in the thread.
I'm also proposing we NERF running. I'm not sure you're reading this. This must be a joke.
1 x
Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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Post by Bill » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:06 pm

Lunatic wrote:You're kidding, right?
Please tell me you're kidding.
This is the exact kind of shit I'm talking about in the thread.
I'm also proposing we NERF running. I'm not sure you're reading this. This must be a joke.
Running is perfectly fine? Maybe you just aren't good enough at the game to stop advanced tactics!
0 x
~WALING! Supreme!

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Post by CCUUBBYYEEEE » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:52 pm

M_M_M wrote:typical runner excuses..........
Bill wrote:Running is perfectly fine? Maybe you just aren't good enough at the game to stop advanced tactics!
Guys, this isn't a rage thread for you to come in and accuse the rest of us. We just want to let you see our side in a logical and presentable way. Running, Camping, and Spamming, while sometimes annoying, are a physical part of the game, and are only performed to achieve the end goal of winning the game, which is the point, no?
1 x
:mrgreen: Long Live SUCK :mrgreen:
Originally stated by Del Poncho
Killing is an art,and this game is your canvas.

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Post by Splinter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:18 am

Lunatic wrote:Stamina being on forces players to manage their energy so that they can't be caught. I used to get caught in melee that I didn't want to deal with because I sprinted everywhere. Now I just jog everywhere and sprint when I find it necessary. People can't catch me, I'm never up shit creak without a paddle, and I'm always ready to go. Stamina forces players to be smart and manage a resource, it involves focus and tactics. If we want energy to be better for melee, then we need to remove stamina drain on attack for melee so it can keep up. We also need to limit stamina in some fashion for gun-wielders to nerf running. These changes alone will keep the game in a balanced state.
I like the idea of less stamina cost for melee attacks (maybe only for attacks that miss), because the main problem I have when chasing a runner is that I spend too much stamina hitting the air, probably because of the lack of a dash attack. At the same time though, I really feel cornered when I have a magnum/shotgun and a guy with a machete is chasing me.

I was gonna go on but I think this topic is turning into something else. Maybe we should create a topic about stamina?
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Hold your breath.

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Post by M_M_M » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:16 am

Lunatic wrote:You're kidding, right?
Please tell me you're kidding.
This is the exact kind of shit I'm talking about in the thread.
I'm also proposing we NERF running. I'm not sure you're reading this. This must be a joke.
why would i be kidding? only a noob would make these excuses, maybe lern to use an actual fighting technique.............
0 x
hello yes

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Post by Lunatic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:59 am

This is definitely about the art of winning, though game balance is always a welcome discussion - probably best for other threads, though.

I want to talk about WINNING. Apparently, running is a noob tactic, escaping players and getting away from harm while forcing enemy players to expend stamina/their ammo in an attempt to seal the game is actually really bad and we just need to git gud. Please, enlighten us all: What are these special fighting techniques? How can I improve as an SFD player and use these master ninja pro parcour tricks to better myself and beat all noob camper/runner/spammers? I've always wanted a special "fighting technique" that makes me win!

You're going to come in here and be the scrub outlined in both the link I posted as well as the main post I made for this topic... I just don't get it. Explain yourself.
0 x
Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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Post by KliPeH » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:25 am

Lunatic wrote:Gunning is the best, sure-fire way to deal serious, consistent damage, as well as putting pressure on and otherwise dealing reliable damage.
[...]

I'm not saying melee is without it's uses, it does have strategic and important use, but it's so much more situational and often so dangerous that a smarter move was always to not approach and to not try, not without a katana anyways.
It's only as situational and dangerous as you describe when you're playing with stamina on.

This ties into the resource-usage of both methods I mentioned earlier. While ranged weapons are limited by their ammo (which can be counted and planned ahead/strategized with), melee weapons require an unknown amount of stamina both to get close enough to the enemy AND to attack, so by the time you reach your opponent you're already "out of breath" and can't fight effectively. This results in either you losing the match entirely, or in you switching to your ranged weapon "devolving" into a regular firefight that ends the game. I've noticed this when I played with stamina yesterday; you are useless after swinging a few times with the weapon, and suffer a massive HP loss because you weren't able to output enough damage to stop your opponent from shooting you. You always either don't manage to reach them at all (while their bullets reach you) or can't hit them enough to stop them from killing you with a high DPS ranged wep. Leaving stamina on doesn't solve any of the kiting issues that people encounter in melee vs. ranged combat, it only makes things happen at a slower pace.

Because stamina limits a melee user's defensive/evasive capabilities against a ranged opponent, turning stamina off eliminates nearly every con melee combat has. Let's admit it - the game isn't trying to be realistic. OF COURSE you'd lose if you ran at a guy with a shotgun with a hammer in hand in real life, but this isn't it. As the developers already stated, they're not aiming to make the game realistic, nor are they looking to appeal to the competitive players playing SFD.

Your infinite mobility capabilities, and infinite "swing" power are what make the melee weapon so useful. The ranged enemy has to stop and shoot at you, which is where the melee weapon defeats the ranged weapon (assuming you can block the shot and don't get staggered). Bullets don't have the stopping power a powerful swing has (excluding crits, but that's a part of the game the devs won't be changing), and as such advancing towards a ranged opponent with a melee weapon, with the oppurtunity to disarm them or force them to brawl with you, IS a good option when you know what you're doing.

Yes, IE is a cheat. It's not the way the game was meant to be played, but it's an option in the game nonetheless. There are many arguments to keep stamina on, but I stand by my decision to turn it off in my games. It's tedious to manage, it prevents some cool plays from happening that would otherwise be possible with infinite strafing enabled, and restricts melee to a point where you can never use your melee patterns/moves to their full extent because you get too "tired" to swing your weapon or roll behind your enemy. Stamina prevents you from winning any games against a ranged opponent - as they'll kite you and attack you even with 0 stamina available, while YOU, with 0 stamina, can't do anything about it.

I made a mistake when I said melee and ranged are equal; I was looking at it from an IE point of view, where using melee weapons is much easier and much more beneficial than base game. I'll take my words back and say that the base game DOES favor ranged weaponry, and if you want to balance it towards the "melee > ranged" direction, turn IE on inside your own hosted lobbies.

I'd be willing to turn it off once the stamina drain gets nerfed or using melee weapons no longer costs stamina to use. For now though, exploiting bugs/glitches isn't a common thing in my games and IF it becomes so, I'll be using the moderating (kickban) tools available to me to their full extent rather than turning IE off and not having any fun whatsoever. The exploits you demonstrate might hurt the almost non-existent competitive scene, but they don't hurt me.
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Post by Wozenbelt » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:44 pm

Lunatic wrote:grrrr
lunatic, he was joking lol cmon
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i got wozen fever

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Post by Bill » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:06 pm

Lunatic wrote:This is definitely about the art of winning, though game balance is always a welcome discussion - probably best for other threads, though.

I want to talk about WINNING. Apparently, running is a noob tactic, escaping players and getting away from harm while forcing enemy players to expend stamina/their ammo in an attempt to seal the game is actually really bad and we just need to git gud. Please, enlighten us all: What are these special fighting techniques? How can I improve as an SFD player and use these master ninja pro parcour tricks to better myself and beat all noob camper/runner/spammers? I've always wanted a special "fighting technique" that makes me win!

You're going to come in here and be the scrub outlined in both the link I posted as well as the main post I made for this topic... I just don't get it. Explain yourself.
There is ONE! full proof tactic that ceases all other tactics..the drop kick. I'm the games only supreme drop kick and a master at it, this move will stun your opponents and do crucial blows until they are off the map.
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~WALING! Supreme!

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Post by Lunatic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:15 pm

What is a drop kick, exactly? I've heard you use this term a lot but the only way I can imagine a dropkick in SFD is quite literally falling and kicking.

Now, if we had a literal dropkick... That would be great.
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Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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Post by Gurt » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:24 am

There seem to be this unspoken rule that if you only have melee you must run towards someone aiming at you with a gun? I promise, there is no such rule in the game. But sometimes you must if you don't have map control so it can hurt (but who is to blame if you put yourself in a corner and let all the map control to your opponent?).

Hjarpe and I have been thinking about this for some time and came up with an idea that will introduce energy management while shooting.
Being in hip fire or manual aiming will drastically slow down energy recharge rate or stop it.
Shooting will temporarily stop all energy recharge for some time and also drain energy (the recoil from the weapon must be managed which drains energy which can be different depending on the weapon). Shooting with a weapon drains energy and it won't recharge until you stop aiming. This will give people trying to catch up a better chance and players shooting a lot harder to get away.
Maybe manual aiming should gradually start draining energy too...
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Gurt

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Post by Splinter » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:39 am

This is a cool idea, but if you implement it, I think you could compensate it just a little bit in some cases. For example, when you shoot with a magnum, it feels like an eternity to me before I'm able to sprint again, I think it's almost 2 seconds. If you miss (which is not that hard against a player with a metal melee weapon), you get punished really hard.
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Hold your breath.

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Post by Lunatic » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:45 am

Charging someone with melee while they have a gun sounds stupid. It'll get you killed. I never said it was a good move to make. What I mean is, melee has poor methods of approach and chasing once you actually get on top of someone, so it makes it difficult to kill someone with melee when they have a gun since it's easier to get away with a gun than it is to keep up with melee. I don't necessarily want melee to win every time so much as give it a chance to get onto and keep on someone that has a gun. That said, the only time I ever really get a good chance to melee someone 1v1 is when we run out of ammo and I think my health/weapon will allow me to win. Melee is weak on flat ground, weak in general, but feels super broken with objects and platforms around since things start to get kinda stupid with falling attacks and air attacks being super fast compared to other means of attack.

As I said up top though, winning is the goal. If you don't have the gear necessary, don't force an approach. If they have a gun, you can also run away. I wish there was a better way to deal with runny-gunny playstyles but charging with melee isn't the answer if you want to win. Just fall back and get some better stuff, or make them waste ammo. Don't get yourself killed because you feel "forced to charge with melee".

I like what you have to say about gunning stamina changes. Might be kind of weird at first, and will undoubtedly need some work to make sure it fits in well, but it sounds like a healthy change for the game.
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Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

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