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Complaints about the changes made to SFD.

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Nebraska4
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Complaints about the changes made to SFD.

Post by Nebraska4 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:03 pm

This is something I've been wondering about for a while and as a new player I'd be curious as to what happened. So I've heard a lot of players and comments about how the game has been ruined and that it used to be a much better experience to do things for example Meele. I'd think the biggest difference there would be the addition of grabs, but I honestly see that as a plus rather than a downside. Thus what I'm interested in in here is for the community to inform me as to what these complaints are about & what was lost with the new additions to the game. Thanks so much in advance.
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Post by Odex64 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:37 pm

Well, many competitive players complain about the nerf of melee and other bullshits..
When grabs were added everyone started hating melee and complain whenever you grabbed someone; but nobody complains anymore. I think it's the same for the new melee, just give it some time and nobody will care anymore..

I think devs just tried to fix many bugs of the old melee mechanic which were used as "special moves", and turn the game more family friendly to the newbies, however they turned the game less competitive and dynamic (which is good for new players, but less enjoiable for veterans).

To be honest I don't really care about the new melee, devs improved SFD and fixed many bugs, sadly it won't receive major updates anymore.
If you're really curious about the old versions, just google on internet and you can find a launcher for the last Beta version or older.
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Nebraska4
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Post by Nebraska4 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:16 pm

Ok, thanks! Do you know a trusty and reliable source to find a beta version? I don't feel like giving my PC a virus anytime soon.
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Post by Gurt » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:39 pm

Just be aware that old versions of SFD contained a lot of bugs (and not just melee bugs) which caused unintentional cooldown skips, being able to in some cases get in 2x hits in about 3 frames if timed well and a lot of cases where you had little to no chance of getting back up - or "special moves". Things we have fixed through the updates. If you look on really old versions of the game guns were pretty much useless compared to melee and players tended to just grab a katana and hack their opponents to pieces before they could react and dive/roll-dodge all bullets. Nothing we want to bring back - but of course those that wielded the katanas will remember it differently. The game had a different pacing way back - but with all games under development, changes are to be expected.

Since the release and full version of SFD we have no further intention to drastrically change anything in the game. Besides, we're looking on our next project.
Off Topic
You know, every update since the first public test version players have complained. Every update we don't release, players still complain we're not releasing any updates. You can't please them all!
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:46 pm

Here's a my, an old melee veterans, answer to this topic
If you have never ever played any of the previous versions of SFD before, back when it was free, then you have absolutely no chance of understanding why some people are pissed off at the changes that were made. I started playing in the last Alpha version, when grabs where well incorporated into melee gameplay aspect. Therefore I didn't have a problem with grabs for a long time, as I had never played the game prior to their addition. Same thing here applies to you then, your used to playing this melee, so you wouldn't have experienced something better before. But for someone who played melee on that level before, it's almost unthinkable to want to play melee as shallow as this. The melee version I'm referring to here is beta 1.02c, the last free SFD version, if anyone's confused.

Quick comparison of old and new melee:
Old melee:
• Being able to fight 2 or more people at the same time
• Fleshed out melee system with a rich variety of different fighting styles
• More defensive techniques (incredible mobility)
• Being able to ascend to Super Sayan level power (I'm not kidding)
• Over time learning access to advanced moves that gave you an upper hand in a sticky situation, giving a sense of progression. These moves weren't restricted to ping, anybody could learn the timing given enough concentration and dedication.
• Free flowing melee with the ability to cancel punches and kicks with rolls, thus forgiving miss clicks. Especially useful to be able to play high level and keep up with hosts when you had high ping.
• More dynamic combo system with the possibility to escape simple spam with quick reflexes. Always rewarding the player who pays attention and is actively playing.
• Skill based melee system

New melee:
• Gangraped in a 2v1 situation, seriously just run. 2 people who played for like 1 month can pin down melee players with years of experience in a corner and just mash a. Nothing you can do about that, except take huge damage.
• Stiff and clunky melee system + way to committing
• No matter how long you played and how much experience, forced to always have access to exactly the same moves as someone who just started playing.
• Blocks being inconsistent, microlag behind all inputs
• Simple combos being inescapable, less combo variety
• Less defensive options, less mobility
• Ping based melee system
Understand why players are upset now?
If you want to actually see how cool melee was, and not just read about it, check out my old melee tribute: Legends Never Die Some of that stuff is mind blowing how skilled people back then were. Chances are you won't even pick up some of the very subtle differences (I as a veteran would). Some of them are obvious, some of them you have to pay attention to, and some you would have to play the video in slow motion to see. But those subtle (small) changes are enough to differentiate a melee system which is fun to play on (and rewards skill) and one that does not.

Melee was much more popular before, and thus there where many players who willingly engaged in melee, now however many people don't even want to touch melee and use it as a last resort, I don't blame them really, I've tried fighting with 130 ping, it's really, really hard. Everything's so delayed, and we can't utilise high ping tricks like we could before. There's also the thing about unbalanced weapon additions that widened the gap between melee and guns. Today melee isn't really worth learning for the reward it gives, since you can just grab a pack of shurikens, some incendiary ammo or activate a few drones, maybe get a chainsaw and shock baton…overall less effort required. Back then, it was unthinkable not to learn melee as all the hard effort really ended up paying off. And that’s the thing that gets me every time, every single update from the moment the game hit Steam has been to discourage melee, which used to be the most fun mechanic in the game. The current generation of superfighters are much less skilled then the previous.
The biggest thing we lost in the transition to Steam was the mobility which was crucial to melees' long time success. The ability to jump out of a roll right after a punch at any given time (they added a minimum amount of time that you must stay in the roll after an attack) and the free flowing melee where we could cancel attacks, thus changing much of the pacing and making melee unnecessarily unforgiving. Since you can't cancel attacks and you lack defensive options, if you don't want to take damage, you have to play absolutely perfect, which is pretty impossible especially with high ping as you can hardly predict what your opponent's next 10 moves are going to be.

This melee system might look the same on the surface, especially to someone with an untrained eye, but it certainly doesn't play the same. Like at all. Any veteran melee player will notice a huge difference when playing the game. The developers did a lot of smaller changes that then added up and had a huge effect on melee as a whole. To me it feels totally different from what I was playing 2 years ago. Some players claim the new melee system is superior to the old, and that old melee sucked and was broken. This was the result of most of those players not investing enough time into the game to learn melee in the first place, and it was only broken if you didn't know how to read your opponent. Others will claim Pre-Alpha melee is the way to go, the most balanced melee system with no throwing and no grabbing. But I digress from both of these theories. I think Pre-Alpha melee is too balanced, (like you pointed out) it feels limited in options, and I think melee now is too committing and has horrible inputs. If I had to choose I'd still take Pre-Alpha as it retains the mobility which existed before and melee fights were better overall. I think the perfect melee system is if we take what had in beta 1.02c, and then build on that (instead of removing and changing all that was established already). Beta 1.02c had the most advanced melee system in Superfighters Deluxe 7 year history. The seeds for the skill we came to see were planted back in the Alpha update, then later discovered and mastered by the melee community and lead to the birth of some of the best melee fighters, among them: Scull, El Vaquero, Jaeky, Czar… just to mention a few. I bet you 13$, that if they would re-open servers for Beta 1.02c, after 1 month of playing old melee you will never want to come back to this. Whenever I revisit older versions of SFD I'm amazed by how far melee got. Pre-Alpha 1.2.1, then Pre-Alpha 1.8.4 and then Beta 1.02c, melee kept evolving through the years. The Steam melee system takes a huge step back from all the possibilities we had back in Beta 1.02c. It's like evolution backwards. Having a melee system with a rich variety of options is great because it established that no two players will do exactly the same things when faced with similar situations. For example my favourite move in old melee was "snakefist" (kick+roll+rising punch, unblockable if I hit the kick), and it was something that I used to finish off my opponents, like a signature move. I know others who had a similar relationship with double hits (like merchant), 4 hit combo (magnum) or shadowkick. It's about players being able to express themselves, something we can't do anymore when all these moves were removed, now we are all forced to play the exactly the same. I can honestly hardly differentiate players anymore other than from their skins. If they would all dress the same I wouldn't be able to tell them apart simply because they all play too similar. Back in beta 1.02c, if a pro melee player made a fresh account and posed in a new skin, chances are you would still be able to recognise them because of their unique playstyle and signature moveset. It's very frustrating when all these high skill movements are stripped from the game, and everyone is nerfed to exactly the same level as someone who just picked up a controller… Just read these post: https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... 3309&hilit and https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... 3770&hilit

So instead of buffing, they nerfed
Instead of innovating, they removed
Instead of empowering the weak, they weakened the strong

I would argue they made the game less enjoyable for everyone. Both new and Veteran. Keep in mind that melee is much more than just: Punching, kicking, block and grabbing, it's about how it's implemented into the game, timing consistency (stuns, block intervals, forced roll time), input reliability (blocks, character control) and also includes stamina and combos.
Also downloading a previous version of the game isn't going to remotely give you the same sense of experience that melee was back in the day. If you download beta 1.02c you will only be able to melee with stupid zombie bots, who are really weak. You have to play with a person if you want the real deal. If you are intrigued by what I'm saying and perhaps want to find out more, we can chat on Discord.
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:56 pm

Odex64 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:37 pm
When grabs were added everyone started hating melee and complain whenever you grabbed someone; but nobody complains anymore. I think it's the same for the new melee, just give it some time and nobody will care anymore..
That's not true people haven't forgotten old melee, people will never forget old melee until the last veteran player disappears from the game. From what i've heard during my play sessions, most people just lost faith in the game and the developers and they think it's a waste of time trying to argue their own viewpoints.
Odex64 wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:37 pm
I think devs just tried to fix many bugs of the old melee mechanic which were used as "special moves", and turn the game more family friendly to the newbies, however they turned the game less competitive and dynamic (which is good for new players, but less enjoiable for veterans).
yes, it made melee bland and dull. And did they make the game more friendly towards new players? No. They added a ton of OP weapons which veterans can use to crush them without any effort whatsoever. It's not enjoyable to start playing a game just to die within the first 30 seconds. It's also not fun for a skilled player to have to deal with situations like that.
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Post by Vitamin E » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:31 am

Game’s been much better ever since they’ve added the ability to throw items and grab people. Adding more abilities to the game makes it more dynamic in that you have more options to combo people with. When people say the old melee was better, I think about how it was back then and I remember it differently. Our memories contain bias so it would be best to see a side by side video comparison for a true evaluation.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:08 pm

Vitamin E wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:31 am
Game’s been much better ever since they’ve added the ability to throw items and grab people. Adding more abilities to the game makes it more dynamic in that you have more options to combo people with.
I like throwing knife, i just don't like shurikens. I like grab punching, i just don't like being able to kill someone in 1 move (throwing of cliff), because that doesn't strengthen combo variety, these combos become the meta.
Vitamin E wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:31 am
When people say the old melee was better, I think about how it was back then and I remember it differently. Our memories contain bias so it would be best to see a side by side video comparison for a true evaluation.
I can do it when i have enough time. I'm pretty far behind on my studies. Am also actively looking for people that have some good footage of old melee.
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But I've always had the feeling we would die young
Some die young
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Post by Odex64 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:35 pm

I'm planning to make a direct comparison of melee and all possible combos of Pre-alpha 1.10.2b, Beta 1.0.2c, and the current version.

Expect a video soon.
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Mighty Spirit the 2
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:29 pm

Odex64 wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:35 pm
I'm planning to make a direct comparison of melee and all possible combos of Pre-alpha 1.10.2b, Beta 1.0.2c, and the current version.

Expect a video soon.
I want to make one as well, but only beta 1.02c and Steam version, and i won't cover all combos. I'll see how yours turns out. The more people talk about old melee the better.
Good Luck! :) 👍
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🎶I will tell your story if you die
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