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An Honest Review of Superfighters Deluxe

Discuss everything to do with Superfighters Deluxe here that doesn't fit in other Superfighters Deluxe Forums!
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KliPeH
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An Honest Review of Superfighters Deluxe

Post by KliPeH » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm

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>> Click here for the full Steam review <<

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Off Topic
Today I went ahead and did something I was long overdue in doing, and that is sitting down for a few hours to write down what I genuinely feel about this game post-release. And while, yeah, I may have not played SFD as much as some of you did over the last couple years, I have to work very hard to continue financially supporting my raging addiction of collecting videogames I probably won't play, so basing my experience on a few hours of SFD per month will have to do for now.

My review neglects to mention I mostly don't bother with online lobbies anymore, it also fails to describe the host settings I use for an optimal playing experience which I really wanted to include. But then again, it also neglected to mention many other things when I cut it 3-4 paragraphs short, as Steam can eat my entire ass and then some with its 8,000 character limit.

I wish I had more room to talk about how amazing the original game was, and how the new game as a whole is much greater than the sum of its parts; how most Negative reviews focus only on certain aspects of it failing to see the bigger picture. I wish I had space to talk about the tight controls and steep yet rewarding learning curve. How throughout the game's lifespan the devs listened to the players and added most of their planned and requested additions. How incredible the scripting and map-making scene is.

In contrast, I wish I had space to talk about how most weapons feel samey and don’t add much to the game. How sub-optimal ping makes the game unplayable, how unreliable port forwarding and NAT punchthrough really are. How the bots in the campaigns and challenges don't represent even a fourth of what a real player can do with this game and its mechanics; that said, online lobbies are plagued with green-pinged "veterans" exploiting glitches the devs deem to be part of the game, making it unapproachable for new players and bad connections to the server.

I actually had to use a few forum posts of mine to help me remember key details, namely this post I wrote to explain how different SFD is to the original Flash game, this post about why SFD bots suck and why not improving them will cost the devs the game's life, and this thread with me explaining in multiple posts why I consider kneel bypasses to be exploits rather than a "by design" feature.

You don't have to indulge yourself in these posts, I just thought they were interesting pieces of SFD history. My opinions over the years formed into one long review which ultimately had to be boiled down to a Thumbs Up or a Thumbs Down, with me opting to conclude my experience with the game as Positive. It wouldn’t be a lie, either; I do like the game and genuinely think it was designed with great passion and good intent. That said, I can no longer hold it to the same standards I did when it was provided to players free of charge. I expect bugs to be addressed and features to be fully fleshed out before the game is inevitably abandoned.

Sadly, that didn't happen.

I have attached the full review in the spoiler down below; this shouldn't count as self-promotion as I provide criticism about the game in this thread and you are free to discuss it as you see fit (I don't want to derail other existing topics any further). I would appreciate it if you went to the Steam page and marked the review as either Helpful or Unhelpful depending on whether you liked what you read or not.

Cheers!
---
► Show Spoiler
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Post by Rockefeller » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:00 am

Ill eat your ass for you
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Post by KliPeH » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:20 am

Rockefeller wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:00 am
Ill eat your ass for you
uwu
let’s try to keep replies on-topic
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Post by Kawabanga » Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:14 pm

Couldn't imagine more precise review. The professional press wouldn't rather approach to it more profoundly, i.m.o.
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm

While what you said about the weapon pool is correct, you should also mention that it is pretty polluted with redundant weapons that function too similarly to existing ones.

The game IS very random, but even with just skill and some strategy you can start beating players who have better equipment.

You also seriously underplayed throwing and grabs - they're incredibly overpowered when in the right hands. There are combos combining the two that can easily deal more than half of one's HP. Even simple combos using just grabs and kicks can deal a fifth of your HP. Even a thrown knife is a third by itself.

It's also so that the meta is to get all the weapons you can gather safely, while avoiding confrontations and camping for as long as you can. The idea is that players who actually play for fun will kill eachother off so then the camper can finish off the last ones. The scenarious you described would almost never happen in a game of players who are good at the game and who follow a more strict strategy.

You forgot to mention the abundance of bugs that make even the most fundamental game features break. This can lead to your unfair death and gives a general inconsistency with the game (Especially with kneeling during melee), tons of physics bugs, an unshakeable feeling of jitteriness, etc.

While the game can be taken casually, those players will most likely suffer due to the abundance of powerful weapons and tricks that better players will use, and they'll also suffer from bugs like anyone else. If they do get better, they'll shortly realize the massive amount of shortcomings the game has in for example map design, weapons, melee, consistency, etc.

I disagree with you saying that you're relatively experienced with the game. You should mention that you primarily play with bots on your own server (Last time I heard, at least), and la´ast time I played with you (Though this was a while ago), you were at best decent compared to other players I know. There's alot left for you to learn, but I wouldn't say you're missing out.
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Post by KliPeH » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:31 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
While what you said about the weapon pool is correct, you should also mention that it is pretty polluted with redundant weapons that function too similarly to existing ones. [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
You should mention that you primarily play with bots on your own server (Last time I heard, at least) [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
You forgot to mention the abundance of bugs that make even the most fundamental game features break. This can lead to your unfair death and gives a general inconsistency with the game (Especially with kneeling during melee) [...]
Read:
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Off Topic
In contrast, I wish I had space to talk about how most weapons feel samey and don’t add much to the game. [...]
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Off Topic
My review neglects to mention I mostly don't bother with online lobbies anymore [...]
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Off Topic
[...] online lobbies are plagued with green-pinged "veterans" exploiting glitches the devs deem to be part of the game, making it unapproachable for new players and bad connections to the server.
Many of the things you mention were excluded because I simply lacked the space. Like I said, Steam only allows 8,000 written characters per review. I speak about them in this thread. Other, more positive aspects were prioritized because ultimately the review is Positive and I will naturally elect to speak about the good things the game has on offer; same goes for Negative reviews. I did my best to stay objective but really most things boil down to personal preference. The disclaimer mentions my background and my bias.

 
mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
You also seriously underplayed throwing and grabs - they're incredibly overpowered when in the right hands. [...] [Players will] shortly realize the massive amount of shortcomings the game has in for example map design, weapons, melee, consistency, etc. [...]
Nope! I gave throws and grabs the exact amount of space they needed in a review - a few lines or a paragraph at best. One melee move is a part of a larger system and further a part of a larger game. I refuse to waste previous space dissecting how a single move complements or comboes a larger play. There is much more to this game than a couple melee moves - or, hell, just melee in general. See:
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Off Topic
[...] the new game as a whole is much greater than the sum of its parts; [...]
Grabs aren't a revolutionary addition that singlehandedly made or destroyed this game, it's a mechanic akin to aiming your weapon, strafing or jogging, or combat rolling and diving off a building - and will be treated as such. I will not give it more attention than it deserves when I could talk about how fun and unique the rest of the game is.

I can see entire matches go without (real) players utilizing grabs or throws. You won't find a match where players don't fire at eachother, dive or roll to avoid projectiles, navigate the stage using strafing and ledgegrabbing, exploiting (or unintentionally running into) hazards sprinkled around the map, and generally making use of items and powerups - all of which build upon a neat gameplay loop I personally enjoy.

My reviews are aimed at newer players to whom the information you mention will be irrelevant, as they first and foremost learn how to shoot, move, what each weapon does, what plays can be executed when etc. I remember my very first hours discovering this game fondly. Those weren't good because grabs and throws didn't exist, but rather because most mechanics were fleshed out and meshed well with eachother. Players used to complain about fire being overpowered back in Pre-Alpha 1.4.2, nowadays you won't see a single Steam thread or review talking about it; players will always find something to complain about, I just try looking at the bigger picture.

Ask a veteran CS:GO or League player whether they still enjoy the game as much as they used to when they weren't aware of all the game's shortcomings and small inner-workings, or whether they are solely pushed forward by force of habit, vitriol or spite - having invested their lives into an admittedly flawed game they had put on a pedestal for many years. Thankfully I haven't reached that point and never will; unfortunately the same can't be said for the other members of this community.

 
mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
The scenarious you described would almost never happen in a game of players who are good at the game and who follow a more strict strategy. [...]
What scenarios? In my review I describe the game's mechanics and it's up to the reader to decide whether these are something they could jive with or not. The only "scenario" I mention is where a player dives another off a building and into a hazard, which is completely feasible in most regular matches. What doesn't happen? Fighters riding Bazooka rockets into other players? Blocking shots with melee weapons? Disarming opponents? I list mechanics that exist and can be used in the right situation if desired. Options are always good, and SFD offers about half a dozen at any given moment, which is great game design as far as I'm concerned.

 
mgtr14 wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:43 pm
I disagree with you saying that you're relatively experienced with the game. [...] la´ast time I played with you (Though this was a while ago), you were at best decent compared to other players I know. There's alot left for you to learn, but I wouldn't say you're missing out.
Thank you for this very relevant and constructive piece of information :)

I use the word "relatively" for a reason. I'd say I'd fare better than a player who still hasn't gotten used to the unconventional ADS controls, the kneel cooldowns that only happen in certain scenarios, the cover and physics systems, the spread and range of the weapons etc. I don't often visit other servers (in which my ping sits at a comfortable 90-100) and don't really know how to handle the inherent delay that comes with each action, especially when facing off against players such as yourself. While I agree this can detract from the experience of a new player, I find my enjoyment hosting my own lobbies, or playing with bots so I don't run into those issues. Hence I write:
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Off Topic
[...] [The review] also fails to describe the host settings I use for an optimal playing experience which I really wanted to include. [...]
These settings work well for me as someone who comes from a relatively secluded area, and I would recommend anyone else in my position to do the same - download a cool texture pack (I'm using my own), remove maps you don't like from the playlist, set the queue to random, boot up a lobby with a bunch of scripts, add 4-5 Expert mode bots then go have yourself a blast. Although, I have no doubt in my mind that a player coming from North America or Russia will have an easier time finding a server they can play with good ping on, so these issues cease to exist.

Thank you for your feedback.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:20 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:31 pm
(post)
While I did not read the off-topic part in your post, it shouldn't be needed because I'm criticizing your review. The way you play the game is important and should be noted in the review, or at least include a link to this thread as an extension of your review. Right now, someone who reads the review may never guess you're almost only playing the game a few hours a month and not only that, almost exclusively with bots.

What I meant by "scenarios" was the way you described the mechanics as well (crits, fire, rolling, etc.). I'll agree I was vague in my first post.
Eitherway, what I say still holds true. A lot of mechanics aren't worth utilising because they're worse than others.

I also want to say that the best strategy to ensure your survival, is to camp. This also means that you will generally be non-confrontational unless you can do it without risk - This means that certain risky mechanics or actions should not be utilised.

If you agree that certain mechanics/actions are just better than others, and that the best strategy to ensure survival is to camp - then a lot of mechanics will simply not happen as much as you think. Why use punches and kicks so often when I can grab and throw just as often? Why try blocking shots when I can fail and take unnecessary damage? Why melee when I can just shoot someone? Why should I engage in combat in the beginning of the round, when I can let the rest kill eachother off?

A lot of mechanics won't get utilised as often, and some mechanics even seemingly disappear into thin air.

This is why I think you're just not experienced enough, compared to the better players I know. If you join Blurry's right now, you can find a player called Freegunner who only uses the best strategy. You'll see that my assessment is true if you watch him. You'll also see that it is a pretty boring way to play the game, and that he doesn't expose himself to most of the game's mechanics.

This isn't good game design. It seems like the game gives you options, and then you'll figure out that there really only was one option after all.
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Post by KliPeH » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:41 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:20 pm
[...] I also want to say that the best strategy to ensure your survival, is to camp. This also means that you will generally be non-confrontational unless you can do it without risk - This means that certain risky mechanics or actions should not be utilised.

If you agree that certain mechanics/actions are just better than others, and that the best strategy to ensure survival is to camp - then a lot of mechanics will simply not happen as much as you think. Why use punches and kicks so often when I can grab and throw just as often? Why try blocking shots when I can fail and take unnecessary damage? Why melee when I can just shoot someone? Why should I engage in combat in the beginning of the round, when I can let the rest kill eachother off?

[...] If you join Blurry's right now, you can find a player called Freegunner who only uses the best strategy. You'll see that my assessment is true if you watch him. You'll also see that it is a pretty boring way to play the game, and that he doesn't expose himself to most of the game's mechanics.

[...]
Having an optimal way to play the game does not equal it being the only way to play, nor the only way to win. This is where the random nature of SFD comes into play; even the campiest of players will occasionally get blown up by an explosive barrel, taken out with a random power weapon, or flung off the map by a random crit in their retreat.

You'll find many modern games provide an established meta for the players to exploit. But, the reality is that this is still a game, and it is still your pastime, and you're meant to enjoy what you're doing - whether it be using the meta to get a "Congratulations, you won!" banner, or going for a more risky play because the process of fighting itself feels rewarding to you. Grabs or throws are not a winning formula, they're a shortcut. How does this affect you? If you have some self-control I imagine you'll do anything within your power to keep the game on a challenging and entertaining level.

If your fun concludes at sitting in a corner waiting for others to kill eachother off, then so be it. My fun is engaging other players, and if I die to you because I was exhausted from the fights I elected to engage in for my own fun, then again, so be it. I refuse to give my own fun up to gain an imaginary accolade; not only that, but you don't unlock anything by winning, nor are your stats kept track of, so the act of winning ultimately means nothing - if you didn't enjoy your time doing it. SFD is not an eSport, you're not participating in these games for money, and your life does not depend on whether you manage to out-camp Freegunner or not.

"Here's my view on winning, right? Winning is fun. Winning with something that's clearly sub-optimal - that's a lot more fun. And even if that happens less frequently, it's pretty cool. [...]" - John "TotalBiscuit" Bain, 2014
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Post by mgtr14 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:07 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:41 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:20 pm
[...] I also want to say that the best strategy to ensure your survival, is to camp. This also means that you will generally be non-confrontational unless you can do it without risk - This means that certain risky mechanics or actions should not be utilised.

If you agree that certain mechanics/actions are just better than others, and that the best strategy to ensure survival is to camp - then a lot of mechanics will simply not happen as much as you think. Why use punches and kicks so often when I can grab and throw just as often? Why try blocking shots when I can fail and take unnecessary damage? Why melee when I can just shoot someone? Why should I engage in combat in the beginning of the round, when I can let the rest kill eachother off?

[...] If you join Blurry's right now, you can find a player called Freegunner who only uses the best strategy. You'll see that my assessment is true if you watch him. You'll also see that it is a pretty boring way to play the game, and that he doesn't expose himself to most of the game's mechanics.

[...]
Having an optimal way to play the game does not equal it being the only way to play, nor the only way to win. This is where the random nature of SFD comes into play; even the campiest of players will occasionally get blown up by an explosive barrel, taken out with a random power weapon, or flung off the map by a random crit in their retreat.

You'll find many modern games provide an established meta for the players to exploit. But, the reality is that this is still a game, and it is still your pastime, and you're meant to enjoy what you're doing - whether it be using the meta to get a "Congratulations, you won!" banner, or going for a more risky play because the process of fighting itself feels rewarding to you. Grabs or throws are not a winning formula, they're a shortcut. How does this affect you? If you have some self-control I imagine you'll do anything within your power to keep the game on a challenging and entertaining level.

If your fun concludes at sitting in a corner waiting for others to kill eachother off, then so be it. My fun is engaging other players, and if I die to you because I was exhausted from the fights I elected to engage in for my own fun, then again, so be it. I refuse to give my own fun up to gain an imaginary accolade; not only that, but you don't unlock anything by winning, nor are your stats kept track of, so the act of winning ultimately means nothing - if you didn't enjoy your time doing it. SFD is not an eSport, you're not participating in these games for money, and your life does not depend on whether you manage to out-camp Freerunner or not.
If someone chooses a strategy that means minimizing risk, then you simply almost never have the option to melee them. They'll most likely only throw things at you or run and gun. Do you still think you have the option to melee if that's your preferred way to fight? What about blocking shots with your melee weapon, getting to use your power weapons, etc? Will even the gunplay play out the way you want if they camp ladders for example?

If you insist on trying to use these mechanics, you'll likely suffer losses way more than you'd enjoy. The best strategy isn't just "alternative", it's literally the best strategy, in which one will abuse the more damaging mechanics. Any other strategies simply can't hold up.

EDIT: In my previous post I mentioned Freegunner as an example of someone who uses the best strategies (He could still take even less risks, but already as of now he should be a good example of the Meta). I have nothing against him, I'm not saying he's "what's wrong" with SFD. I actually at first hesitated to mention any players as many of you will probably assume I'm just angry or something.

Again, like you do very often, you assume I'm out for anything but having fun - but that's beside the point anyways. The point is that your review will give readers a false view of the game, it gives the positives but barely mentions the equally noteworthy flaws of the game. I understand that you lacked space, but I suggested linking to this thread or simply giving the negatives some space eitherway. You also clearly didn't have enough in-game experience to know what the meta is or how some mechanics are rarely utilised.

I've also decided to remove my own review, if I remember correctly then it also doesn't give a good picture of SFD as a whole; even if I think that the flaws will easily overtake the positives for new players. I don't know if I'll rewrite it, but if I do then it will have the same conclusion as I currently have.
Last edited by mgtr14 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sfd » Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:13 pm

I couldn't be bothered reading the whole context of this thread, but I think I have idea what it is.( Although u can just consider this as my review of the game.)

I think SFD is a rly cool game, its rly fast-paced game, intense and it never gets boring. You can do a lot creative combos with melee in which I never seen in any battle royal-type games I have played so far. Most of the weapons is rly satisfying to use too and getting kills is satisfying, getting wins is satisfying and the best of all is you can customize ur character in a lots of ways.

Tho, there is alot of bugs and rng that can be a little annoying, but its natural.
Btw I started in steam version and I've heard a lot of people tell me the previous version of SFD is much better than current one, tho i'm not convinced cuz i have barely touch beta sfd and i think the current sfd is fine.

What im actually curious of is what MOST people prefer? is it the Beta or Steam version? Why cant we just make a poll where every players that is active vote which is better. Beta or Steam version. So at least the majority of people will be pleased. Cuz like the devs said(i think) they cant pleased everyone. Tho im aware they currently stopped updating the game, im not insisting them but it will be cool if they continue updating sfd, cuz it kinda feels like SFD is not finished and holds a lot of potential. I'll give sfd 7.5/10 rating.
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Post by Luchiini » Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:02 pm

holy shit everyone is at freegunner's throat lmfao
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Post by KliPeH » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:06 am

@mgtr14 I have read your feedback and took what you said into consideration.

Seeing as my review is currently the most helpful I deemed it necessary to modify some parts of it to better reflect on the current state of the game and share some of the negatives you mention.
  • I changed the "relatively experienced at the game" part in the disclaimer to "my experience may vastly different from yours" as per your recommendation.
  • I removed the paragraph about veteran players failing to consider some aspects of the game in their criticism to make space for more important topics; it is my review, not theirs, so it should be reflecting on my own opinions.
  • I mentioned the bugs tied to the box2D engine.
  • I mentioned that competitive players are "dissatisfied with SFD's reliance on RNG".
  • I better explained how kneel cooldown bypasses tie into the knife-throwing or grab into-throw-meta.
The attached quotes are the newest / most modified parts of the review. You're more than welcome to re-read the entire review if you so desire as I have made many more changes than that; do let me know how you feel about the review now.

 
KliPeH wrote:Disclaimer: I moderate the official game forum on behalf of the devs and received the game for free for doing so. I own an openly endorsed sister-website hosting custom-made SFD content. I started playing in Pre-Alpha 1.4.2, over 6 and a half years ago, so my experience may vastly differ from yours. I’ll do my best to try and stay as objective as I can be, but for all intents and purposes I may be considered biased.

[...]
KliPeH wrote:[...]

However, the game is mostly based around luck. Some players will receive good drops throughout the game while others will remain empty-handed. Those looking for a fair fight will find themselves disappointed. Making Superfighters multiplayer has spawned certain groups and individuals leaning towards its competitive side (namely melee combat, which contains the least amount of random factors in it), dissatisfied with SFD's reliance on RNG.

[...]
KliPeH wrote:[...]

Melee combat in particular has been under fire for getting slower with each update, recently due to the introduction of the grab - a move that can be executed by any player (barehanded), potentially allowing for the instakilling of the rest. I personally like the move, but most community members don't share the same enthusiasm towards it I do.

Throughout the game’s lifespan the devs have actively worked hard to fix bugs hurting the game and its playerbase. Some are directly tied to the box2D engine the game uses and cannot be fixed, namely objects randomly crushing or flinging players off the map. That said, some bugs are deemed part of the game by the devs (yet contradict existing mechanics), and get exploited by veteran players on a round-to-round basis to beat newer players into a pulp.

Kneel cooldowns, for example - originally introduced to address stunlock meta - can still be cancelled through the use of ledgegrabs, objects, ladders and low ceilings; this means players can chain kicks into other moves, specifically into weapon throws which deal significant damage, or grabs which then incapacitate them and allow them to be thrown off the map. These have been brought up to the devs' attention multiple times, yet shrugged off as another one of the game's features.

[...]
 
 
I have also added a comment linking to this thread in case any potential buyer would like a second opinion from a less biased source as you suggested.

 
KliPeH wrote:Here's a forum thread further discussing some glaring negatives in this game with input from other experienced members in the SFD community:
http://mythologicinteractiveforums.com/ ... f=8&t=4218
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