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Remove debris impacts with players

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Remove debris impacts with players

Post by Lunatic » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:23 am

When it was added to the game, I was a little confused. Why does everything impact me now? It's stunning me, it's knocking me over! It was a confusing addition to start, and though it made sense soon enough, it became more of a chore and frustrating little mission tracking down little pieces of rock and wood, and keeping an eye on what can knock me over if it chooses. Today, it still exists, and while it's less stunning to see it in action, I can't shake the feeling that the addition doesn't really fit with how the game plays.

As an addition, I have to ask "Why?" What does this feature add to the game? It's not something that the player can control, it's extra damage from things like explosions or things breaking nearby you, and it stuns you. Removal of player control for being even near the wrong place at the wrong time. Sometimes, you're caught up in a brawl, press block, and deftly deflect that tiny chunk of wood - just in time for Johnny to cave your skull with his bat. While I don't disagree with being able to block debris in this fashion, the fact that it can interfere with other parts of the game like this strongly leads me to believe the addition was not necessary and is detrimental to the game as a whole.
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Post by Corporal Adrian Shephard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:28 pm

I am havind a hard time to understand this because i had zero problems with debris. What exactly bothers you?
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Post by KliPeH » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:32 pm

Corporal Adrian Shephard wrote:I am havind a hard time to understand this because i had zero problems with debris. What exactly bothers you?
Lunatic wrote:[...] It's stunning me, it's knocking me over! It was a confusing addition to start, and though it made sense soon enough, it became more of a chore and frustrating little mission tracking down little pieces of rock and wood, and keeping an eye on what can knock me over if it chooses. [...] It's not something that the player can control, it's extra damage from things like explosions or things breaking nearby you, and it stuns you. Removal of player control for being even near the wrong place at the wrong time.
You did read the thread, yeah?
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Gurt wrote:simply don't play SFD

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Post by Corporal Adrian Shephard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:41 pm

Yeah, i did, i just wanted an extra information with examples. Because i just dont see the logic behind its stunning me. You get stunned even after jump attack. I am expecting something like: "Someone shoots barrel next to a crate, debris hit me, i get stunned, while i am stunned he comes and kills me."
Damage is not even that much. So i basically wonder what made him think this way about debris.
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Post by KliPeH » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:43 pm

Corporal Adrian Shephard wrote:I am expecting something like: "Someone shoots barrel next to a crate, debris hit me, i get stunned, while i am stunned he comes and kills me."
Lunatic wrote:Sometimes, you're caught up in a brawl, press block, and deftly deflect that tiny chunk of wood - just in time for Johnny to cave your skull with his bat.
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Gurt wrote:simply don't play SFD

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Post by Splinter » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:48 pm

I wouldn't like the feature to be completely removed, but maybe it could use some more adjustments like they did before. I like how explosions are more realistic now, you really wanna get out of the way if something is about to explode. But, just to give an example, if you're climbing up a ladder and someone on the top floor kicks a little piece of wood debris on you, you get knocked down the ladder, which is a bit implausible.

Maybe there could be some more little rules, like "smaller debris can only stun if they're caused by an explosion."
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Post by Corporal Adrian Shephard » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:38 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Corporal Adrian Shephard wrote:I am expecting something like: "Someone shoots barrel next to a crate, debris hit me, i get stunned, while i am stunned he comes and kills me."
Lunatic wrote:Sometimes, you're caught up in a brawl, press block, and deftly deflect that tiny chunk of wood - just in time for Johnny to cave your skull with his bat.
Ah yeah. Thats actually exactly the answer for what i was asking. Thanks for fixing my mistake twice.

Well, i really wouldn't care if the debris removed or not. Simply because i can't tell the difference while playing except for some funny deaths that was caused by it.
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Post by Iliyan » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:19 pm

Remove is total not for me ,but a fix to make it fly slower is a welcome any time
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:45 pm

My problem with it is that it adds nothing valuable to the game. You can't look at the addition and say, "Yeah, this was a good addition. This makes the game better in any sense, this improves the game as a whole." I can look at the SMG and say, "Yeah, it's more gun variety, it's a fine weapon, and I can see it being used every match to good effect." I can't say the same about debris in a positive sense. "Yeah, it's debris, it's out there fucking shit up in an indirect sense, it's really knocking some people over for shits and giggles. haha yeah." If it's an addition to just make the game funnier, do we not already have the pillow?
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Post by Sh4d0w » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:42 pm

Talking about debris impact - grenades. Freaking grenades.
When the debris update was added, the grenades got the ability to stun players. It has made grenades one of the most overpowered weapons in SFD. It gets even worse with infinite ammo.
Not only the grenades got the ability to stun. This thing was also added to mines. It isn't a big deal, but if the players which have thrown the mines are fast enough to shoot them after the stun, you're screwed.
I think that the debris impact should be removed from these weapons.
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Post by [Failman] » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:58 pm

Honestly, I can see where you're coming with the annoying part. It feels like it contributes to the luck aspect of the game in a bad way. Basically what it does is increase the chance of someone surviving there for making the round last longer, although it can also be used as a weapon against flying players that could send them to their imminent demise, I still do not understand why I have to suffer after going through the trouble of making sure someone falls in that explosive barrels so I can finish him off with my AK, but nope stray debris has to come in knock my weapon away and leave my vulnerable. Granted I have been saved by this feature in some games albeit in an unsatisfying fashion, I still believe this game should focus more on skill rather than luck, Even if luck is a huge part of this game. I'd suggest giving debris a very high miss rate so it can pass through players sometimes if you don't wanna get rid of it. Accommodate your players, please.

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Sh4d0w wrote:Talking about debris impact - grenades. Freaking grenades.
When the debris update was added, the grenades got the ability to stun players. It has made grenades one of the most overpowered weapons in SFD. It gets even worse with infinite ammo.
Not only the grenades got the ability to stun. This thing was also added to mines. It isn't a big deal, but if the players which have thrown the mines are fast enough to shoot them after the stun, you're screwed.
I think that the debris impact should be removed from these weapons.
This is off topic but I feel I need to say something since it has been a while. First grenades do too much damage for something that is so versatile, the mines are ok since they're stationary but grenades need to be nerfed a bit in my opinion. Second, that's your fault for running into the grenade if you block and kick you can usually send the grenade flying back, and shooting a mine is a show of skill nothing wrong with it. Finally, Infinite ammo sucks, it makes all weapons bs especially the m60, grenade launcher, Bazooka, AK, and even the damn pistol.
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Post by psychotherapist » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:48 pm

I think you guys are overreacting a bit. In my experience, debris has almost never had a significant amount of impact on the outcome of a match. Usually, you're just briefly stunned from an explosion or something. It's also not really that annoying for me as not only does it barely do anything, it also doesn't happen that often. When it does actually hit me, it's usually my fault for not taking cover, blocking, or predicting my enemy.

Explosions usually send debris in random directions, so it is a bit luck-based. Even if you sometimes dodge debris completely by chance, if it does happen to be flying at you, there are still options to protect yourself (unlike weapon spawns, player spawn location in the map, bullets hitting through rolls). You can also make use of debris lying around on the floor: kick it towards an opponent to throw him off guard. This actually diversifies melee and ranged combat even more.

One time, I killed someone on a ladder by knocking him off with kicked debris. This has only happened once in all my playtime and I wouldn't consider it luck either. I knew that if I kicked, I could possibly hit the other guy with some debris. It was a conscious decision of me to do that. If something like that happened to me, I wouldn't get mad, but rather applaud them for their skill.

If you still think this feature is too luck-based, remember that this game isn't intended to be played competitively, or seriously at all. The devs have stated this numerous times. The most important thing is to just have fun.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:41 am

Debris often doesn't have a significant role in a fight, and I think that's also a problem haha. Often, it's there strictly to annoy the player, which makes it a very un-fun feature. I just don't see a reason for this mechanic to exist in the game.

I think some clarification is in order, though - wood and metal splinters specifically shouldn't impact players, as they are the most annoying. I can still see buckets, propane tanks, etc still impacting players as they're more easily seen and require manual player interaction to be able to impact a player, more often than not. These objects add more situational awareness to both offensive and defensive players, so there's no problem in that regard. The wood and metal debris are quite random, quite annoying, hard to see, and often feels unnecessary. Why add an annoying mechanic for the sole purpose of being bothersome?
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Post by TIT » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:12 am

Personally I just don't play on maps with a lot of breakable objects. Wich I guess is kind of a lazy solution but it definitely works.
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Post by Shark » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:57 am

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True, the debris are very annoying, and more, when a player dead your "drops" kill me, like a Katana, Knife, Sniper, Pistol, etc...
Fix this man ;O why debris of floor affect our player. Just this...
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Post by Gurt » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:41 pm

Flying debris can hit you across the map which can knock you down or disarm you if you're unlucky or just simple deal a small fraction of damage. All features doesn't have to have a significant impact to the game. This one is a small feature that can make all the difference in the outcome of a match - misfortune for some or being a lucky turnover for others. It all depends on the situation which is (for me) a fun addition to the game.

The debris flying around isn't designed to be predictable to avoid either. An exploding barrel can send metal shrapnel flying really fast towards you.

For me this feature goes in pair with random drops from crates or the 10 % random hit chance while rolling/dodging (and even the small chance for grenade duds). You don't really know what you will get from crates, if you will get hit by bullets while dodging or if explosions will send debris flying towards you. Something you need to be able to adapt to in certain situations. It's individual if you think this "randomness luck" is annoying or random fun but for me it certainly makes each match unique.
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:11 pm

(Gurt beat me to it - but here's the "Mytho"-side of wot he said)

It's just meant to be funny, and another thing to be wary of, another risk to factor into your equations.

I can see how the "randomness" of flying debris can be annoying when you're not used to it, but to us it felt like a natural move for the kind of game this is. If you haven't noticed, we like these mechanics - little silly things that can come in and foil your best-laid plans (or, let's not forget, your enemy's plans).

Also, it's not as if barrels and things explode for no reason, there is always a chain of events leading up to that explosion. Which means you can protect yourself if you think a few moves ahead. If I get disarmed or even murdered by a piece of debris (a rare enough occurrence), my reaction is to laugh like an idiot. It comes down to the usual question of a competitive game vs. a dynamic game, and we have always favoured the latter.
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Post by Splinter » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:37 am

I like the debris, now I watch out even more for explosions, and I avoid aiming with a weapon near them, since I know I might get disarmed by splinters (how ironic). But maybe a few small changes on how the "missiles" work would be good.

This, for example: https://giphy.com/gifs/Z3BjXKlXjDjVe

It's just a silly demonstration, but I don't know if kicking a small piece of wood or metal should be enough to knock down a superfighter from, like, a platform in chemical plant and into the big acid vat. Sometimes, the players just miss their kick, but it works anyway because there was some debris there. I'm just talking about small debris here, not big things like propane and gasoline tanks.

Also, I couldn't record this next one, because it's a bit rare, but sometimes when you grab a player who is kneeling with a weapon on his hand (a katana or a sniper), their weapon will drop (you disarmed them), but it will hit you and make you release the player from your grab. If it's not a bug, I don't think it makes sense, even as a "randomness" feature.
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Post by Host » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:34 am

You should totally take out the grenade/mine knock-downs when these 2 things hit you.
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Post by Hjarpe » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:23 pm

Splinter wrote:I like the debris, now I watch out even more for explosions, and I avoid aiming with a weapon near them, since I know I might get disarmed by splinters (how ironic). But maybe a few small changes on how the "missiles" work would be good.

This, for example: https://giphy.com/gifs/Z3BjXKlXjDjVe

It's just a silly demonstration, but I don't know if kicking a small piece of wood or metal should be enough to knock down a superfighter from, like, a platform in chemical plant and into the big acid vat. Sometimes, the players just miss their kick, but it works anyway because there was some debris there. I'm just talking about small debris here, not big things like propane and gasoline tanks.
It may not be realistic, but it's consistent with the pre-existing rule that any impact knocks you down while you are jumping or climbing. We try not to add exceptions to these basic rules unless it's for a very good reason.
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