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Remove debris impacts with players

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Sree
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Re: Remove debris impacts with players

Post by Sree » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:49 am

If it was added for realistic it's bull shit , When snipers shots and grenade launchers can't dis-arm a guy and a small debris can , its stupid ....
At least you can make it such that broken debris can't affect a guy while he is climbing or ledge grabbing , it makes sense , how can someone who is having a good grip on a ledge or a ladder can get knocked off by a small debris ? Again ... 3 - 4 smg or assault rifle shots can't affect a guy while climbing but a broken debris can .... The mechanics broken ...

and if it was added for fun , simply ... i don't see anyone laughing or having fun when a broken debris hits them off a ladder and they fall and die.
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Gurt
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Post by Gurt » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:13 pm

The game-logic of SFD goes like this (and is not aimed to be realistic!):
Projectiles can NOT stun* you but can crit you causing you to be knocked down**.
Explosions, flares and grenades can NOT stun* you but can knock you down**.
Melee attacks, thrown weapons and debris can only stun* you.

*stun - Shows the "hit" animation, freezes you for a short duration and can disarms your current weapon if you're aiming/shooting/drawing it. If you're in the air you will be knocked down. Stunned while climbing/ledge-grabbing will make you fall.
**knock down - Knocks you down even on the ground (but don't disarm you).
Again ... 3 - 4 smg or assault rifle shots can't affect a guy while climbing but a broken debris can .... The mechanics broken ...
It's easy to get hit by smg or assault rifle shots as you can get shot across the map but being hit by debris from explosions while climbing is much harder and rarer (debris flying near the same speed of bullets in this game would probably contain a lot more energy than bullets so it makes sense from that perspective). Debris kicked from a user at much lower speeds still follows the stun rule above. I don't see any problem with this other than perhaps the occasion when you're going up a ladder and someone kicks some debris in your head but then again you should have seen the debris before trying to jump up and taken that into account. While it might be silly (from a realistic perspective) being knocked down from a ladder from kicked debris it's a well defined rule in SFD. I rather not have anything kicked in my head while climbing a ladder either ;)
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Post by Brine » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:44 pm

please dont remove derbis impact! :( its so unuiqe and when i saw that grenades impact with the player i was so happy becouse in the old sf they were almost usless and deffinetly not as fun as the new ones.plus,random derbis can be dodged so everything is alright! :D
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Post by [Failman] » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:05 am

Gurt wrote:The game-logic of SFD goes like this (and is not aimed to be realistic!):
Projectiles can NOT stun* you but can crit you causing you to be knocked down**.
Explosions, flares and grenades can NOT stun* you but can knock you down**.
Melee attacks, thrown weapons and debris can only stun* you.

*stun - Shows the "hit" animation, freezes you for a short duration and can disarms your current weapon if you're aiming/shooting/drawing it. If you're in the air you will be knocked down. Stunned while climbing/ledge-grabbing will make you fall.
**knock down - Knocks you down even on the ground (but don't disarm you).
Again ... 3 - 4 SMG or assault rifle shots can't affect a guy while climbing but a broken debris can...The mechanics broken ...
It's easy to get hit by SMG or assault rifle shots as you can get shot across the map but being hit by debris from explosions while climbing is much harder and rarer (debris flying near the same speed of bullets in this game would probably contain a lot more energy than bullets so it makes sense from that perspective). Debris kicked from a user at much lower speeds still follows the stun rule above. I don't see any problem with this other than perhaps the occasion when you're going up a ladder and someone kicks some debris in your head but then again you should have seen the debris before trying to jump up and taken that into account. While it might be silly (from a realistic perspective) being knocked down from a ladder from kicked debris it's a well-defined rule in SFD. I rather not have anything kicked in my head while climbing a ladder either ;)
The problem is as it has been pointed out many times before, it's NOT fun. Debris is just RNG which can be fun when applied correctly but can be very bad when done wrong. This is an example of it being done wrong, you should not limit players ability to plan ahead with this random Bs. Debris is an extremely cool effect when used from a visual perspective as it makes things look more dynamic but when used as a gameplay element it's a nuisance, not only can it be a huge tied breaker but it breaks the flow of power some players have from having thought 3 moves ahead just to get knocked down from his pedestal from an unpredictable variable. Honestly, sometimes I don't know what you're trying to make, are you trying to make this game dynamic or are you trying to make it tactical because you made the game extremely unforgiving while simultaneously making it Random, you can have the full hp and still lose because a piece of debris came out of nowhere knocked your gun out and gave the other guy a chance to live. Before whenever you died it was because you weren't good enough, smart enough, or just plain bad. I could get ready for whatever was thrown my way but his is just ridiculous.
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Post by Vitamin E » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:53 pm

Some of you all seem to take the game too seriously. I threw a nade that almost killed my final opponent, but it missed and it blew up an explosive barrel that shot out a metal chip and I died from that because I only had like 3 hp. It was hilarious. It's a rare occurrence that 1 piece of shrapnel will ruin your whole game. Just laugh when you die, there's no reason to get so heated
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Post by KliPeH » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:11 pm

Vitamin E wrote:Some of you all seem to take the game too seriously.
[...]
Just laugh when you die, there's no reason to get so heated
Exactly right. You're looking to remove a minor RNG factor which you can totally avoid rather than one that makes you lose because a supply crate spawned you a pistol and your opponent an M60, and it "wasn't even your fault". After having played with debris for a while longer, at least as a host who doesn't experience input delay, I think I can safely confirm to myself that it's a feature I'd like to keep in the game. I know that if I get hit with debris it's my fault, not the game's. It's more often than not easy to anticipate whether you'll get hit and act accordingly.

You know what's "NOT fun"? Working on your opponent's health for 5 minutes taking potshots between their dives into cover and getting blown up when you move in for the kill because a bazooka spawned right in front of them. But you know what? Dying isn't fun either, and all of these quirks are what makes this game enjoyable when you're the one exploiting them and not the other person. As soon as we start removing these major "unfun" RNG factors, THEN we start looking at the others.

As it stands, this game is massively RNG-focused and I don't see it being changed any time soon. I personally like using debris against other people; even if my grenade missed they'll hopefully get hit by shrapnel and get me the opportunity I was looking for to engage. I also like kicking stuff at people, way more fun to combine that with melee combat than just melee combat without. You're given more tools to kill your opponent, something I'm totally in favor of.
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Post by Pricey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:24 am

I agree with Vitamin E and KliPeH.

In my opinion, debris doesn't affect the outcome of a game enough to be an annoying feature that needs to be removed. Sure, debris will knock you over, stun you, maybe disarm you at times, but that's the luck of the draw that is SFD. What weapons you receive, situations you are involved in, and your spawn points at the start of the round is all luck, really.

Debris can be an annoying feature, and I'm not denying that it sometimes is, but when used correctly and skilfully, debris can provide a good tactical advantage (especially if your opponent is climbing or ladder, or near an edge), to turn the tides of a game. Also building on Sree's argument, this game is way too fictional for realism to even be considered as an argument for removal. I mean seriously? Big, bulky men running around who can take grenades to the face without dying, you have to be joking. It has been said before, this game was merely built upon by a small game used for entertainment in high school. Is it far from the realistic game you argue it should be.
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Post by Rhodes » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:28 pm

Debris is way more easily dodged than bullets, and much tougher to control. Like if you kick a piece of debris of a platform, it is much less likely to hit someone than if you just shot them with an SMG, or even a pistol. Also it adds another aspect of fun to the game, having to dodge players, bullets etc. AND random debris, which in my opinion is a great addition to the game.
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Post by Bash Kraken » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:53 pm

I look at it this way: there is a point when too many random features in a game make it unenjoyable simply because of there being too much randomness for a player to account for along with the concrete parts of the game. A player can always count on and react to concrete features (players can shoot bullets at you with guns, items thrown by players can hit you, you will get set on fire by standing in it for too long), but random features (debris might fly towards you because of an explosion, grenades might be duds, bullets might hit you while you are rolling or diving) are hard and sometimes impossible to react to. Now, random features are not necessarily bad, but they add a new aspect to the game entirely that many players can be annoyed by, as random features have the potential to do harm, but do not always do harm. If debris always flew towards players after an explosion, then a player would know to be prepared for that and would be able to react accordingly. However, debris function as a random feature, so players cannot always anticipate and react, leading to something they cannot control, which leads to them being annoyed towards the game for only sometimes punishing them. The objective of the game is to win by killing all of your enemies, but when random features that you cannot control oppose that success, it can sometimes feel like the large amount random odds are stacked against you.
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Post by Vitamin E » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:24 pm

Debris impact is super useful for when someone is hiding in cover. You can just kick debris onto them and they get knocked out of cover so you can go attack them. Anyway, it barely does any damage, so it's not even that bad whenever someone gets hit by it.
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Post by Lunatic » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:08 pm

It's not about the damage, it's about the stun, the knockdowns, and the disarms. I've been pushed off buildings, knocked off ladders, disarmed, and stunned by a shower of debris on multiple occasions that have all led to my death. Getting hit by debris alone doesn't do much. It's about the context of the action in relation to other players/dangers. Getting stunned while being shot, or while near fire. Getting disarmed while you draw your weapon at the same time as someone else, dropping your massive HP advantage and not being able to kill someone when you had the opening, losing in the process. Taking fall damage in general.

The mechanic serves to annoy and hinder. It does not add fun. It does not add depth. You might laugh at it from the side, but there are more "humorous" things in being blown up by random barrels as it is.
(To clarify, I strictly mean metal/wood shards. Buckets and things are fine.)
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Originally posted by Gurt
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