Dear forum users! In compliance with the new European GDPR regulations, we'd just like to inform you that if you have an account, your email address is stored in our database. We do not share your information with third parties, and your email address and password are encrypted for security reasons.

New to the forum? Say hello in this topic! Also make sure to read the rules.

Arbitrary Melee Damage Values

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
Forum rules
By using the forum you agree to the following rules. For this forum you also need to follow these additional rules.
Post Reply
User avatar
StarNord
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Title: SelfProclaimed LvL99 Suggester
SFD Account: StarNord
SFD Alias: Sunny Citizen
Started SFD: A lil' Before Pre-Alpha 1.6.0
Location: Mum's Basement
Gender:
Age: 16
Contact:

Arbitrary Melee Damage Values

Post by StarNord » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:03 pm

Okay, lemme show you an *actual(supposedly) damage value list of a few melee weapons including one i'll be covering

Pipe Wrench: 11 HP per hit

Bat: 11.5 HP per hit

Baton: A whopping 10.5 HP per hit!!!

"What!? how can a Baton give less damage than a Bat and a Pipe Wrench?" You might ask, and here's something to note, it actually has the lowest melee damage of all the melee weapons, and on the other hand a suit case gives a damage of 22HP a hit(and then breaks) giving the most damage of any melee weapon, my point is are all these damage values arbitrary? or are they inaccurate?

if they are inaccurate then how do i test them myself? i need to get quick answers instead of trying to wait till someone finally blurts out the answer in a topic i never come across.

and if they're arbitrary then fix em dammit! Or just explain why because i wanna know whether batons are just wiffle bats for poilcemen or not.
Last edited by StarNord on Sat May 05, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Go On, Click Away. Signatures Are For Fools Who Haven't Said Enough! -Karl Marx if he had an internet connection

User avatar
Gurt
Lead Programmer
Lead Programmer
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:22 pm
Title: Lead programmer
Started SFD: Made it!
Location: Sweden
Gender:
Age: 28

Post by Gurt » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:40 pm

While the current damage values are arbitrary for ALL items there's nothing wrong with them. I don't remember the exact damage output values per item but posting this in the bug section would be the completely wrong section.
I understand that this topic is an issue with the design of the game and can be FIXED
Why do you think it's an issue in the design (other than it's inaccurate - inaccurate compared to what?) and what's your proposal how to fix it? Why must a baton (made to incapacitate) deal more damage in this game compared to a pipe wrench (from some solid metal)?
6 x
Gurt

User avatar
StarNord
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Title: SelfProclaimed LvL99 Suggester
SFD Account: StarNord
SFD Alias: Sunny Citizen
Started SFD: A lil' Before Pre-Alpha 1.6.0
Location: Mum's Basement
Gender:
Age: 16
Contact:

Post by StarNord » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:48 pm

By inaccurate i meant outdated, i thought the damage value of the baton was lower in an earlier update and then was buffed, but i think i was wrong in that assumption, but i still want to know how to find out for myself.

The baton is intended as a control device but if it is used in a way to harm(or kill) a person it'll be more effective than a wooden bat at the very least, it also depends on the type of baton, the one used in the game is made out of a rigid polycarbonate, which is what bullet-proof windows are made out of.

But generally in any game a baton is assumed to be a bit more powerful than a pipe wrench(which anyone would assume to be the weakest because of how common it is), for example in unturned(a free zombie game on steam) the crowbar which is basically that game's equivalent of the pipe wrench, gives lower damage than the baton in the game, imagine a scenario where a player had to make a choice between a pipe wrench and a baton the player would obviously grab the baton because it looks like it would give more damage especially because it's a lot bigger and looks like it's completely made out of metal.

i don't think it matters whether a weapon is weaker IRL, i believe the weapon that should give more damage is the one that is quickly recognised as a stronger weapon...
0 x
Go On, Click Away. Signatures Are For Fools Who Haven't Said Enough! -Karl Marx if he had an internet connection

User avatar
Noble
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:46 pm
SFD Alias: |LPH| Nobel
Started SFD: I'm a newbie, teach me well ;3
Location: Rio de Janeiro

Post by Noble » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:55 pm

I agree with Gurt.

If you want to measure the damage from weapons, this map might work: https://ufile.io/o3jau

Plus, there are values I tested months ago:
► Show Spoiler
2 x
♫ I won't walk into the gates of hell just yet
Though it's where I belong ♪

User avatar
Motto73
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 7:35 am
Title: Superfighter Royale
SFD Account: Motto73
SFD Alias: Motto73, Pack-Man!
Started SFD: Multiplayer Test Demo
Location: Sunny City
Gender:
Age: 19

Post by Motto73 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:58 pm

StarNord wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:48 pm
By inaccurate i meant outdated, i thought the damage value of the baton was lower in an earlier update and then was buffed, but i think i was wrong in that assumption, but i still want to know how to find out for myself.

The baton is intended as a control device but if it is used in a way to harm(or kill) a person it'll be more effective than a wooden bat at the very least, it also depends on the type of baton, the one used in the game is made out of a rigid polycarbonate, which is what bullet-proof windows are made out of.

But generally in any game a baton is assumed to be a bit more powerful than a pipe wrench(which anyone would assume to be the weakest because of how common it is), for example in unturned(a free zombie game on steam) the crowbar which is basically that game's equivalent of the pipe wrench, gives lower damage than the baton in the game, imagine a scenario where a player had to make a choice between a pipe wrench and a baton the player would obviously grab the baton because it looks like it would give more damage especially because it's a lot bigger and looks like it's completely made out of metal.

i don't think it matters whether a weapon is weaker IRL, i believe the weapon that should give more damage is the one that is quickly recognised as a stronger weapon...
Batons are not made to kill. They are made for stunnig and knocking. These are made mostly out of these "rigid polycarbonate, which is what bullet-proof windows are made out of." Pipe wrench is a heavy duty large-sized chunk of steel. It is tough and thick, while the baton is more like a slender rod. I don't get it why it should have more damage, like, if the only reason is that "it is rarer". Unturned works just like this: the rarer the weapon, the more damage it does not depending on any realistic facts. Baseball bat takes about 3 heavy hits to kill a regular zed, but when you add a few nails to it it will smash through them in one hit. Legendary small knife does more damage than large normal knife. I don't think that SFD is a game that works like this. Besides, it has the (?)longest range so it really comes handy in some melee fights. So I realy see no reason to changing these values to any direction. They are a holy thing that has been us for ages and we are used to them. Do not touch rawrrr
i believe the weapon that should give more damage is the one that is quickly recognised as a stronger weapon...
Intuition is not always your best leader. The way to "Git Gud" is only via playing, learning from mistakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_(law_enforcement)
1 x
Image

User avatar
Hjarpe
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:02 pm
Started SFD: The grey dawn of time
Gender:
Age: 28
Contact:

Post by Hjarpe » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:40 pm

The values are not "arbitrary" so much as "based on my personal intuitions about how much each weapon should do". Which is basically the same thing.
0 x
Quinterball: Vigorously shaking a tile while rapidly tapping CTRL causes the selected tile to randomly flash red.
MythoLogic Interactive: By design.

User avatar
StarNord
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:03 pm
Title: SelfProclaimed LvL99 Suggester
SFD Account: StarNord
SFD Alias: Sunny Citizen
Started SFD: A lil' Before Pre-Alpha 1.6.0
Location: Mum's Basement
Gender:
Age: 16
Contact:

Post by StarNord » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:08 pm

Motto73 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:58 pm
Unturned works just like this: the rarer the weapon, the more damage it does not depending on any realistic facts. Baseball bat takes about 3 heavy hits to kill a regular zed, but when you add a few nails to it it will smash through them in one hit
Good point.

But I was comparing the baton to the pipe wrench only as a rarity thing, realistically, i think a baseball bat would certainly be weaker than the baton... But okay, i get that even then the baton might be weaker to a bat, atleast in terms of damage but it just feels wrong to have it be the lowest damage weapon in the game and to make up for that, give it only a tiny bit of range(which doesn't always come in handy in fights especially if you aren't a part of the 1% melee professionals).

Maybe it having a lil' bit more durability would make it a bit more practical because otherwise it just comes across as a filler weapon just there to give the game some variety and nothing more.
Motto73 wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:58 pm
Intuition is not always your best leader. The way to "Git Gud" is only via playing, learning from mistakes.
It's hard to notice what gives more damage than what when you're in the middle of a battle, you're more focused on blocking the next attack than trying to make out the damage you're giving out, plus you don't have much to compare it to, it's not like one would obsessively check the damage of the pipe wrench on a poor defenseless newbie, then in the same match come across a baton and also(while sweating profusely from their palms) check the damage of that by finding another unfortunate noob and then somehow(without their intuition interfering) realize(even through the small differences) that the baton is weaker than the pipe wrench, it just doesn't seem, dare i say, realistic.
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:40 pm
The values are not "arbitrary" so much as "based on my personal intuitions about how much each weapon should do". Which is basically the same thing.
Ah... On point as always i see, Hjarpe, however the point was so strong that you felt bad and dropped it, how kind of you. :lol:
0 x
Go On, Click Away. Signatures Are For Fools Who Haven't Said Enough! -Karl Marx if he had an internet connection

User avatar
Noble
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 404
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:46 pm
SFD Alias: |LPH| Nobel
Started SFD: I'm a newbie, teach me well ;3
Location: Rio de Janeiro

Post by Noble » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:16 pm

I've realized the damage from items by intuition, I always thought they were accurate and intuitive, like easy to know what's better than what. Maybe they aren't perfect, but the baton at least, it's the weakest melee weapon as it's supposed and I kinda still don't know what you are using as base, but it's a wrong perspective.
StarNord wrote:Maybe it having a lil' bit more durability would make it a bit more practical because otherwise it just comes across as a filler weapon just there to give the game some variety and nothing more.
I do like what you pointed out. All melee weapons in the game have the same speed (which makes sense, considering how the game works), except the fists, that are slightly fast, and same durability. I do think Baton is a weapon that's supposed to have an high and consistent durability, it's a weapon that's well developed specifically for using in this way.

Anyways, a shock baton will be available in future versions.
0 x
♫ I won't walk into the gates of hell just yet
Though it's where I belong ♪

User avatar
Hjarpe
Lead Designer
Lead Designer
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:02 pm
Started SFD: The grey dawn of time
Gender:
Age: 28
Contact:

Post by Hjarpe » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:48 am

In real life, a multitude of factors determine what a weapon is good at. In a more detailed simulation, I suppose the pipe wrench and baseball bats would "hit harder" because of their superior weight and the point of balance being closer to the heads, whereas the baton would be "nimbler" (i.e. you would be able to change its direction more quickly) because it has less inertia and a point of balance closer to the wielder's hand. SFD doesn't really simulate the latter, so what we're left with is a system where the weight and "sharpness" of weapons determine their damage.

The makeshift weapons make absurd amounts of damage for a completely gamey reason (we want people to use them, because they're fun!). A chair doing twice the damage of a sword or whatever isn't realistic, but the visceral output of smacking it in someone's face and it splintering into bits makes the damage output seem plausible in the cartoony world of SFD.
6 x
Quinterball: Vigorously shaking a tile while rapidly tapping CTRL causes the selected tile to randomly flash red.
MythoLogic Interactive: By design.

User avatar
Lunatic
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 623
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:03 pm
Title: I hope Klipeh bans himself
SFD Alias: (LM) Lunatic
Started SFD: 1.0.5 Pre-Alpha
Gender:
Age: 22

Post by Lunatic » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:08 pm

Another thing to take into account from a balancing perspective is what each weapon can do. Metal weapons can deflect bullets (which is highly impractical in 99% of situations but I've seen it be lethal!), and weapons have varying ranges, which leads to some weapons being direct upgrades and some being sidegrades. I feel it's up to the player to learn and understand these values and make informed decisions on their own about which weapons are the best for which situations (as it's a good idea to judge what weapon does well against another weapon). Then again, I think the knife is hands-down the best weapon in the game since it's a 35 damage(!!! what the fuck lmfao jesus christ) nuke from quick and easy access to throwing.

Since there isn't a lot of information on this subject (the wiki is fucked and hard to edit; I haven't released any stat threads in absolute ages due to nobody caring) I'll throw some info down in a spoiler and you can get learned.
► Show Spoiler

If we're going to turn this into a suggestion thread, there's plenty to be said about weapon damage vs weapon length vs weapon rarity vs throwing velocity vs throwing damage, and about the general idea of movesets or special moves per weapon, as well as varying durabilities for each weapon, but this isn't the place for that.
0 x
Originally posted by Gurt
SFD BADASS! 8-)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest