Dear forum users! In compliance with the new European GDPR regulations, we'd just like to inform you that if you have an account, your email address is stored in our database. We do not share your information with third parties, and your email address and password are encrypted for security reasons.

New to the forum? Say hello in this topic! Also make sure to read the rules.

Grab nerf

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
Forum rules
By using the forum you agree to the following rules. For this forum you also need to follow these additional rules.
User avatar
Tom Th3 Assasin
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 11:01 am
Title: SuperStar
SFD Account: Jak Mike
Gender:
Age: 21

Re: Grab nerf

Post by Tom Th3 Assasin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:28 am

20% of whiners 80% of intellect's

Instead of running in a circle.We are getting nowhere.Grabs won case close.
0 x

User avatar
Splinter
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:03 pm
Title: Grenade chef
Started SFD: 1.1.6
Location: Brazil
Gender:

Post by Splinter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:58 am

First I'll explain a new idea I had, then I'll explain why.

Grab rework idea:
-Grabs will be way faster, almost as fast as a punch.
-You can't throw your opponent anymore.
-The grab punch deals as much as a regular punch. 8.5, or maybe 10-12.
-Finishing move: If you grab an opponent with 15 health or less, you can finish him off by either delivering a strong punch (15 damage) or throwing his defenseless, weak body on acid or off a cliff.


Now, let me explain why I think this is a great idea.

To be honest, I don't think the current grab is as bad as some people say. However, if I a lot of players aren't happy with how the grabs work, then I'm not very happy either. :cry:

Now, why do some people think grabs are OP and annoying? Here's why:
-Grabs are kinda easy to land; you only have to predict 1 single block or you can combo the enemy by kicking while dropping from an object, for example.
-Grabs can easily kill a full-health player. You can throw him on acid, off the building or on explosives such as mines and barrels.
-In short: if you predict a simple and common move (a block), you can deal 100 damage to a player, using a simple melee move, the grab.

But there are things which I like about the current grabs:
-Doing combos is fun!
-Makes melee more dynamic
-Throwing people into acid or explosives is pretty funny; I wouldn't like to see that completely removed from the game.
-It completes the rock, paper scissors cycle

So, how do we keep the good stuff and remove the "annoying", "OP" parts?

Well, let's keep the grabs almost the same as they are, but not allowing players to throw full-health people off a cliff. You can only throw them if they're almost dead, 15 health or less. The in-game explanation for this is that the enemy is weak and almost dead, so you can throw him more easily. Hjärpe said that grabs are supposed to be a bit like a finishing move, so I think this idea makes sense. Also, if grabs are a bit faster, they would be a more proper counter to blocks, they wouldn't feel very "clunky" and slow.

I know that Gurt and Hjärpe are working really hard on campaigns right now, but I think they might be willing to tweak a few mechanics if they agree with it, if the community supports it strongly, and if it doesn't demand weeks, weeks, and weeks of work. Gurt's also working on the AI, so... if the community has anything to say about the gameplay, now is the time! Share your opinions, guys, don't just complain about how melee is broken or whatever.
1 x
Hold your breath.

User avatar
Noble
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:46 pm
SFD Alias: |LPH| Nobel
Started SFD: I'm a newbie, teach me well ;3
Location: Rio de Janeiro

Post by Noble » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:57 am

I don't like the idea above. I think the grab nerf idea should focus in countering grab instead of changing it completely. Being able to knockdown someone coming to grab (as a consequence of missing a grab) would fit better as Sree said. There's basically no consequence to grab someone, that's the main reason some are unsatisfied.
Noble wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:08 pm
It's a good time for the players around to say what would be good for the game. The main problem of the topic was because Rick Sanchez critized without being clear at pointing out the problems or giving an open minded idea, and I kept hearing things like "I won't suggest because it will not be accepted by devs", what is nonsense. It's important to tell exactly what you think it will be good. I do not think they should work on or even worry about grab now since they're close to the maybe most important step to the game till now, but the community should always state their opinions anyways.
Just reinforcing what I already said.
0 x
♫ I won't walk into the gates of hell just yet
Though it's where I belong ♪

User avatar
Alexbra25
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:35 pm
Title: lucky boy
SFD Account: Alexbra25
SFD Alias: |LPH| Just me
Started SFD: PreAlpha 1.0.6
Location: Brazil/São Paulo
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Alexbra25 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:59 am

I see some players use grabs almost randomly during a melee fight and it works very often, they just get lucky sometimes and guess that you're going to block. It's pretty annoying to instantly die because of a random grab. I don't see players in a cool melee fight anymore, I just see them trying to grab constantly to throw someone off a cliff or spamming grab combos to deal more damage. Also, sometimes your character, after being thrown, just bounces on the ground near the edge and falls. I like Splinter's idea, it would make players abuse grabs less but still keeping the grabs similar to how they work today.

I think some guys criticize the right things in the wrong way. The criticism can be right indeed, but instead of suggesting new ideas and helping the game become more "playable", like they say, they just say bad stuff about Gurt and mock him. This game has a lot of potential, but some people seem to not notice it just because it's a 2D game with things to be fixed yet. Stop doing this kind of stuff and try to help Gurt and Hjärpe, because if those 2 didn't give up on the game yet, it's because of you, the players. We should thank them. Try to help while we can, I bet they will read every suggestion, no matter how good or bad it is.
6 x
Love will tear us apart

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 am

I am not asking for the grab to be removed or the grab itself to be nerfed. All I am asking for is a better counter against grab. grab is a quick move, it makes the game more dynamic, etc etc. fine I agree, but having a counter against a move like that would make the game more dynamic. It would make you think twice before grabbing and that leads to more skill based plays. thats why I proposed the idea that someone should get knocked down or take additional damage when punched while grabbing, This idea will also let you grab the grabber, because If a player is knocked down with a hit while trying to grab, he can be easily grabbed by you which could be the best consequence for him.
► Show Spoiler
If you are talking about a fight between two incompetent players, every one of those scenarios you mentioned is possible. but in a fight between two competent players, none of them will work. for example, " all you have to notice the windup animation before a grab so that you have time to react and then you can either run the opposite direction ". most of the times I fight a skillful player, He doesn't just randomly grab me. He only grabs me at the times when I don't get enough time to react, ie when I am knocked down. even If I did have the time to react and I ran the opposite direction, then he would easily cancel the grab ( once again we are talking about a fight between competent players ). If you think melee without grabs is just about pressing 2 buttons and standing still, I am not gonna argue with you anymore because you know nothing about melee.
0 x

User avatar
Rick Sanchez
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:15 pm
Title: Alcoholic
SFD Account: Rick Sanchez
SFD Alias: Rick Sanchez
Started SFD: 1.5.0b
Location: Finland
Gender:
Age: 19

Post by Rick Sanchez » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:23 pm

I disagree with all of you, Your efforts are pointless, I've said what i see is fact, and what i see, is a half-assed mechanic rushed out the window asap. Mod or someone pls delete this topic.

Alexbra25 wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:59 am
I see some players use grabs almost randomly during a melee fight and it works very often, they just get lucky sometimes and guess that you're going to block. It's pretty annoying to instantly die because of a random grab. I don't see players in a cool melee fight anymore, I just see them trying to grab constantly to throw someone off a cliff or spamming grab combos to deal more damage. Also, sometimes your character, after being thrown, just bounces on the ground near the edge and falls. I like Splinter's idea, it would make players abuse grabs less but still keeping the grabs similar to how they work today.

I think some guys criticize the right things in the wrong way. The criticism can be right indeed, but instead of suggesting new ideas and helping the game become more "playable", like they say, they just say bad stuff about Gurt and mock him. This game has a lot of potential, but some people seem to not notice it just because it's a 2D game with things to be fixed yet. Stop doing this kind of stuff and try to help Gurt and Hjärpe, because if those 2 didn't give up on the game yet, it's because of you, the players. We should thank them. Try to help while we can, I bet they will read every suggestion, no matter how good or bad it is.

Yeah this exactly man.
Last edited by KliPeH on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited a double post in.
2 x

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:31 pm

Rick Sanchez wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:23 pm
I disagree with all of you, Your efforts are pointless, I've said what i see is fact, and what i see, is a half-assed mechanic rushed out the window asap. Mod or someone pls delete this topic.
" whenever someone asks me for a request with a "pls" because it's shorter than "please". I am inclined to say No because it's shorter than "yes". So No, This thread isn't getting deleted. "

I am sure that's what klipeh is gonna come up with.
0 x

User avatar
Pricey
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 9:29 pm
SFD Alias: (LM) Pricey
Started SFD: PreAlpha 1.8.8
Gender:
Age: 16

Post by Pricey » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:33 pm

I think the main thing that has sparked outrage within the community over the grab is the fact that you can throw your enemies off and insta-kill them; in my opinion, the grab throw was an unnecessary addition, the grab punch would have worked fine as a block breaker (which I assume was the reason for the grab's addition). The grab punch itself is a high-risk, high-reward manoeuvre, lowering its damage would make it less useful and in extreme cases could render the move useless. How a melee fight is affected by the grab even existing is also a topic I have seen risen here, and for me, it's a bit of a double-edged sword. On one hand, it encourages less blocking, and in turn more offensive play, as to not get caught out by a grab; however on the other hand it could also dissuade players from even engaging in melee all together (something I feel is more prevalent near a cliff or a long fall, mainly due to the throw).

The grab needs to be present for the true "rock-paper-scissors" cycle of melee to be complete, I do not agree with how the move functions currently, but I also do not agree with players who think the grab should be outright removed.
5 x

User avatar
Gurt
Lead Programmer
Lead Programmer
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:22 pm
Title: Lead programmer
Started SFD: Made it!
Location: Sweden
Gender:
Age: 28

Post by Gurt » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:17 pm

Pricey wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:33 pm
... On one hand, it encourages less blocking, and in turn more offensive play, as to not get caught out by a grab; ...
That's the primary reason why we added the grab to start with. Before the grab melee fights basically had 3 options: Attack, Block and Wait. Only attack moved the fight forward, the other two actions (block and wait) stalled the game. The grab discourage defensive behavior and forces melee to progress forward which was our objective. The grab is countered/denied by attacking and the block/waiting is countered by the grab. The grab is intended to discourage defensive behavior - not necessarily be a counter for each individual block your opponent do. It's a tool to get through someone that's overly defensive to make the melee progress forward. I think it turned out very well and achieved its goal!

Being near an edge is situational - it's not 100% guaranteed you will be thrown down an edge if you get grabbed like it sounds in many comments here. It might not be an edge near you at all. If you don't want to be thrown down an edge make sure to not stand near one (The same goes with crits from weapons, explosion knockbacks and other things that can knock you down an edge).

If two players want to try to grab one another near an edge - let them! If one of them don't want to be near the edge they should... you know... move away?
5 x
Gurt

User avatar
KliPeH
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:03 pm
Title: worst moderator on the forum
SFD Account: KliPeH
Started SFD: Pre-Alpha 1.4.2
Gender:
Contact:

Post by KliPeH » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Adding to what the other members said, I don't think the grab move itself is overpowered. It is certainly powerful if it manages to connect with a player but otherwise it's somewhat slow to execute and has a fairly hefty use cooldown. Fail to grab once or twice in a row and you've already given your opponent a health advantage, nevermind that the health advantage can be overwritten by a hazard - that's true to many aspects in the game. Standing near an edge almost guarantees you will get grabbed, a sad reality but one that can be anticipated and planned ahead for. You do have the same tool at your disposal with which you get killed time and time again, and can be the manipulating it and winning. Code of honor means nothing when victory is at stake.

It's all about the mindgames and the timing. Sometimes you are forced into dead ends by multiple enemies and getting grabbed is unavoidable, but again, that's not the grab anymore - that's just the game's nature. The odds being stacked against you is not something new to anyone playing SFD. I personally welcome a change that makes it more or less faster, like Gurt says his intentions were.

I too agree with the notion that grabbing completes the rock-paper-scissors cycle. The third part was never "waiting", it was simply missing from the game. Waiting cannot be truly called a counter; being passive isn't a counter. Every move has a duration and waiting for it to end doing nothing isn't a direct means to deal with it. That's like saying waiting for an enemy to misfire and blow themselves up with a red barrel is a counter to shooting; are explosives direct counters to ranged weapons? I wouldn't really look at it that way.

Grabbing isn't a trump-all move, I generally feel that it's very situational. Not in a "I can use this sometimes and sometimes can't" way, but in a making-this-work sort of way. Sometimes I struggle to make my grabs connect. With new players, who aren't able to use the move to its full extent so they throw punches defensively, with very old players who aren't used to the move and are instead used to simply waiting or moving between the attacks. I get completely demolished by players who don't even need to use the grab; they just jump around, wait and move a lot. I see it happen to most players and actually dying from a ledge-throw is a rare sight for me, but maybe I just suck.

The point is, getting thrown off the ledge is a sequence of wrong actions you took, a miscalculation; you didn't put enough distance between you and your enemy, you got cornered into a ledge, you forgot to equip your melee weapon, you misread your opponent's intentions. It's not entirely the move's fault. It screws you over much more than simply getting punched, but it happens way less often too. It's "expensive" to execute, it feels like a heavy move of some move-set compared to punching. It's slow and you can see it coming ahead of time, and if you manage to counter it you get a few free punches in and possibly grab yourself.

Every move can be made to sound "ridiculously overpowered" using the right wording; kicking also allows you to drop people from buildings and into pools of acid, and it's made even worse if the person jumped at the wrong moment. They get boosted in a falling state and can also detonate explosives that way. Dive+kick was also one of the safest way to fuck people over before the grab move was introduced. The third punch in a combo can fling you off an edge and even if you block you're still staggered and can potentially fall off depending on your distance from it. Multiple punches/slams can be executed instantly if you fall a very short distance or jump onto a nearby object, or jump up and down in tight spaces.

What you should be complaining about is how easy it is to bypass the kneeling animation and execute any move instantly, not just the grab. I was the only one who complained about this back then and I was told this was some "advanced move" only skilled players in the game were familiar with instead of an actual exploit. Maybe it's time to look at that again, now that the devastating insta-grab turns players insta-dead.
2 x
 Image

mgtr14
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:52 pm
Title: Ok.
SFD Account: OkOkOK
SFD Alias: Ok.
Started SFD: Ok.
Location: Ok....
Gender:
Contact:

Post by mgtr14 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:04 pm

Gurt wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:17 pm
Pricey wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:33 pm
... On one hand, it encourages less blocking, and in turn more offensive play, as to not get caught out by a grab; ...
That's the primary reason why we added the grab to start with. Before the grab melee fights basically had 3 options: Attack, Block and Wait. Only attack moved the fight forward, the other two actions (block and wait) stalled the game. The grab discourage defensive behavior and forces melee to progress forward which was our objective. The grab is countered/denied by attacking and the block/waiting is countered by the grab. The grab is intended to discourage defensive behavior - not necessarily be a counter for each individual block your opponent do. It's a tool to get through someone that's overly defensive to make the melee progress forward. I think it turned out very well and achieved its goal!

Being near an edge is situational - it's not 100% guaranteed you will be thrown down an edge if you get grabbed like it sounds in many comments here. It might not be an edge near you at all. If you don't want to be thrown down an edge make sure to not stand near one (The same goes with crits from weapons, explosion knockbacks and other things that can knock you down an edge).

If two players want to try to grab one another near an edge - let them! If one of them don't want to be near the edge they should... you know... move away?
That's the thing, some people just became more defensive by outright avoiding melee.
When I see melee now, people usually try to LEAD into a grab, by maybe trying to setup a combo that ends with a grab, and then maybe they just run away, because they've dealt enough damage already to maybe finish you off or to just leave you alone.
I wouldn't really try melee anymore, it used to be alot of fun before, I think that melee fights are slightly slower in some way now that everyone is being very careful in melee. Just so that they can't get grabbed, and then just abandoned.

If you really want me to suggest my own nerf, then I would remove throws and make grabs quicker, and remove the knock back from the punch, that's it. And also make it harder to combo into a grab, and not make throws and grabs work so well together, but that would require some nerfs on throws instead. I would maybe even just make the grab a move like the punch that only worked on blocks.

Also, take into account the common combo of kicking your opponent over and again before grabbing and throwing, that's alot more distance to cover, maybe even bringing him closer to just any edge. Or just any combo that leads into a grab, you can easily abuse props to kick your opponent over alot (Or just don't stand near a prop too?)

Again, melee fights weren't bad before, it was alot of fun. There wasn't a move that pretty much outclassed all other moves in damage and sometimes instakilled, people would move around alot more (Believe it or not), using the environment to land small combos, trying to trick your opponent. Grabs just kinda removed skill in a way, you don't need to kick your opponent of the edge like you used to before, you don't need to land a couple of hits to deal alot of damage, you just needed to catch out a single block and you've most likely finished the fight, maybe even the opponent.
I do agree that waiting wasn't a true counter to blocking, but it really worked and it blended in well and kept the fight going quickly, miss a block? Eat it and move on. There were some people that were litteraly in another dimension, moving around more than the grab would ever encourage. And moving does help, if you wanna get behind your opponent on incoming fire, or if you wanna get into a better position, or simply dodge some attacks and land one inbetween. This move outright discourages people from coming close, just because of that big chance to be thrown away.

I've noticed alot of people say that you can plan for it and all, and sure you can. But the thing is, it encourages people to usually just not melee at all, if you wanna make yourself a danger and with nothing to lose, just stand near an edge. I still think that kicking takes more skill and timing than grabbing and throwing. I would never say that the grab is "just something you can do yourself against the opponent", because again, it could outright end a fight. Sometimes, a grab makes up for when you missed them 3 times. A punch just punches your opponent, you wouldn't die by it or get knocked on your ass while your opponent runs away, a block keeps you a bit stationary (So people would jump around) and you would just block a punch with a big chance to hit right back. I still think that the grab is out of place and a block breaker this powerful was just unecessary.
It has a slow initiation and the amount of time you can hold your opponent, and the abilities, it definetely is more than a block breaker. I think that a better block breaker would be just a move, like a punch that only works when your opponent is blocking. We've never had a move like this, that is basically saying "Don't come close", I really don't get it when people say that I just shouldn't stand near an edge, that's like 40% of maps, and even more if you learn to kick into grabs.

Also, it looks like most of this is just "theoretical", like, Vitamin E said that you could watch for the windup to the grab and dodge? How is that even gonna be possible? You have to see it, react, and hope that your fighter moves in time, despite the possible delay since you're blocking. That is already way too much to ask from us, and I have seen people do that like, 2 times? Another problem is that it's sometimes very hard to see that your opponent is about to grab, especially if his arms' colors match his torso.
How would this really make us move around much more anyways? It looks like the developers just didn't know how melee was at the time, and after adding the grab into the already existing melee system, expected something completely different. They certainly didn't expect very long unbreakable combos for guaranteed damage of up to 36.5 damage with only your fists, maybe even 57, and if you keep landing those wall dives, you can continue until your opponent dies. There is a counter to this atleast, but you will always get hit by the punch after getting tackled into the wall, then you can roll away. Or how we saw that you could instantly grab after breaking your weapon (especially makeshifts), or how throws went together with grabs way too well. Or that we would find these combos just a couple of days after adding grabs. Avoiding kneeling and just doing whatever and then grabbing. If you wanna know what grabs did, it made melee too fast and risky, it made people not melee or block at all sometimes, that's what it did.
And when you guys really wanted a grab, none of you who talked about it really knew much about melee, and i've seen some just disregard the ones who DO know melee, as just "pro melle players". And in all honesty, that was just stupid.
Last edited by mgtr14 on Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Ok.

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:54 am

KliPeH wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:07 pm
I too agree with the notion that grabbing completes the rock-paper-scissors cycle. The third part was never "waiting", it was simply missing from the game. Waiting cannot be truly called a counter; being passive isn't a counter. Every move has a duration and waiting for it to end doing nothing isn't a direct means to deal with it. That's like saying waiting for an enemy to misfire and blow themselves up with a red barrel is a counter to shooting; are explosives direct counters to ranged weapons? I wouldn't really look at it that way.
Simply waiting was never the counter to blocks though? are you telling If I just wait for someone to block, I've countered him already? No, The counter was to wait and punch, and I doubt if waiting and punching is "doing nothing". It is just delaying punch to counter blocks and that is what finishes the " rock paper scissors " cycle. a fair counter to blocks (:

but anyway, seems like none of this matters, " grabs were introduced to counter defensive playstyle and before grabs were introduced, players were playing way too defensively. "

Honestly I can't even agree with this statement. blocking is the only defensive move in the game and it had too many counters? Isn't that enough consequences for a player who is playing defensively? Punching is an offensive move, Waiting isn't a defensive move.. you are just waiting to punch a player so " wait and punch " is also another offensive move and then there was added another offensive move which is grabbing as if there aren't enough offensive moves.

and before grabs were introduced, players weren't really playing too defensively like mgtr14 said, players were moving and jumping to deal damage and those who were playing defensively were countered very hard and easily, you can just run behind a player who is blocking and hit him from the back or simply just wait and punch him once his block decays. again, devs stated that grabs were introduced to counter this " waiting ". well you could just punch a player while he is waiting defenseless? isn't that a fair counter to "waiting" already? You are dealing the same damage he was intending to do on you, waiting doesn't need a counter that could possibly get a player thrown into a pool of acid. also if a player is waiting while you are blocking, then there is nothing you can do, even grab can't help you counter in that case. grab is just an unnecessary unfair counter to moves which already have fair counters, the more you know the more you will admit it.
0 x

User avatar
KliPeH
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:03 pm
Title: worst moderator on the forum
SFD Account: KliPeH
Started SFD: Pre-Alpha 1.4.2
Gender:
Contact:

Post by KliPeH » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:13 am

Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:54 am
No, The counter was to wait and punch, and I doubt if waiting and punching is "doing nothing". It is just delaying punch to counter blocks and that is what finishes the " rock paper scissors " cycle. a fair counter to blocks (:
Waiting doesn't counter the block directly. It doesn't tackle it head on; you're just waiting for the block to end so you can hit your enemy when he's no longer blocking. The devs specifically said they want to counter it, as in enabling people to manipulate their opponents during the execution of the block - when the're still in a state of blocking physically. It did manage to speed combat up as we no longer have to wait for the block to end and if we see it come out ahead of time we can just follow a punch up with a grab and continue dealing damage that way.

The grab seems to have achieved its intended purpose.
0 x
 Image

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 am

KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:13 am

Waiting doesn't counter the block directly. It doesn't tackle it head on; you're just waiting for the block to end so you can hit your enemy when he's no longer blocking. The devs specifically said they want to counter it, as in enabling people to manipulate their opponents during the execution of the block - when the're still in a state of blocking physically. It did manage to speed combat up as we no longer have to wait for the block to end and if we see it come out ahead of time we can just follow a punch up with a grab and continue dealing damage that way.

The grab seems to have achieved its intended purpose.
I still fail to see why it is so necessary to have a direct counter for block. waiting and punching was a move that required good timing and also was a fair counter to block. if the devs wanted a direct and easy counter to blocks, so be it.. but why does the counter has to be this powerful? blocks could only evade 1 punch which does 8.5 damage, It doesn't need a counter that could deal two times damage as a normal punch or even more damage if the victim of the grab is thrown from a building. grabs never managed to speed up melee, the only thing it managed was to make players not melee anymore. If grab was such a fine move, Servers dedicated to melee wouldn't have the " anti grab " script.

Anyway I am done arguing here (xdddd no i am not), It's pointless. even a dominating player such as Alexbra has said "It's pretty annoying to instantly die because of a random grab. I don't see players in a cool melee fight anymore" and that wasn't even valued. every update in this game seems to be lowering the skill ceiling. soon enough even a new player would be able to compete with old competent players because every move would have a direct easy counter smh
Last edited by Sree on Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
KliPeH
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:03 pm
Title: worst moderator on the forum
SFD Account: KliPeH
Started SFD: Pre-Alpha 1.4.2
Gender:
Contact:

Post by KliPeH » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am

Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 am
waiting and punching was a move that required good timing and also was a fair counter to block. if the devs wanted a direct and easy counter to blocks, so be it.. but why does the counter has to be this powerful?
Again, "waiting" is not a move. That's like saying a counter to running away is waiting for you to miscalculate a jump and fall to your death. I can't tell you why the grab has to be this powerful, just that waiting was never a dedicated counter-move to begin with and that it being powerful is an incentive for players to use it. Players are encouraged to use it because:
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 am
grabs never managed to speed up melee, the only thing it managed was to make players not melee anymore.
They did manage to speed melee combat up though, even if that meant not entirely participating in it. I can jump in on someone entrenched in a well defended spot, quickly grab them, throw them off an edge and continue running around with one less threat on the playfield. That threat blocked a part of the map, consumed resources and caused a stoppage in the flow of combat, but has been neutralized because grabbing and throwing are now an option. The grab is still a part of the melee system, right? Ergo it is still considered melee combat, even if it's not as time-consuming as it used to be.

Someone here said that melee combat is now centered around leading your opponent into getting grabbed, it might've been you, and I agree with this entirely. I'm not opposed to the idea either. Slap-fighting might be a display of skill but is ultimately boring for the other players. It might've not been so had the melee moves looked more spectacular or dramatic, or had the moves been more varied, but that's not the case. Watching people struggle in Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Guilty Gear or Skullgirls can be very entertaining, but SFD isn't like those games. There is not a thing that causes tension or joy in watching players occasionally boop eachother until one dies, so I'm glad there's a move that can be powerful enough to deter people from doing it.
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 am
If grab was such a fine move, Servers dedicated to melee wouldn't have the " anti grab " script.
"If the kick was such a fine move, servers wouldn't be using the Uberkick script."
"If the physics engine was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Flow script."
"If the health system was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Healer script."
"If the movement system was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Teleport script."
"If the mindgames were so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Fakedeath script."

If the game is so fine, why are you playing on a custom map with weapon spawns disabled and pre-set starting weapons?

You can see my point. Scripts alter base gameplay but the mere action of using them doesn't invalidate it. People can set custom rules in their own lobbies and that's fine, it shouldn't be affecting the general community. I'd rather have a "bullshit" move that can instantly end my game than watch a couple of [BR]PRO_MELLE_MATSER_>;V's slap eachother around for half an hour.

Man, would it not have been fun to have a script that disables the fire system or brings fall cancellation back?
Those changes were controversial too back in the day.
2 x
 Image

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
Again, "waiting" is not a move. That's like saying a counter to running away is waiting for you to miscalculate a jump and fall to your death. I can't tell you why the grab has to be this powerful, just that waiting was never a dedicated counter-move to begin with and that it being powerful is an incentive for players to use it.
I've already said that I don't consider "waiting" a move. but waiting and punching is still a combo that could counter block and it isn't same as "doing nothing". I am not talking about other scenarios, but in case of blocks waiting and punching as a combo still seems to counter it.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
They did manage to speed melee combat up though, even if that meant not entirely participating in it. I can jump in on someone entrenched in a well defended spot, quickly grab them, throw them off an edge and continue running around with one less threat on the playfield. That threat blocked a part of the map, consumed resources and caused a stoppage in the flow of combat, but has been neutralized because grabbing and throwing are now an option. The grab is still a part of the melee system, right? Ergo it is still considered melee combat, even if it's not as time-consuming as it used to be.


Yes, and have you ever thought that someone can neutralize you in the same manner as well? This is why people don't like grabs. You yourself have given an example of why grabs are so overpowered. someone can just jump in, quickly grab them and throw them off an edge, there isn't anything skillful in that move and that gives way to less intense fights. You may like that, but I don't, neither does a lot of players. People want long and intense combats. I do agree that grabs achieved it's purpose in speeding up melee, but nobody wanted melee to end that quick.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
Someone here said that melee combat is now centered around leading your opponent into getting grabbed, it might've been you, and I agree with this entirely. I'm not opposed to the idea either. Slap-fighting might be a display of skill but is ultimately boring for the other players. It might've not been so had the melee moves looked more spectacular or dramatic, or had the moves been more varied, but that's not the case. Watching people struggle in Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Guilty Gear or Skullgirls can be very entertaining, but SFD isn't like those games. There is not a thing that causes tension or joy in watching players occasionally boop eachother until one dies, so I'm glad there's a move that can be powerful enough to deter people from doing it.


This is where your knowledge over melee and my knowledge over melee differs. No offense, but you just don't know enough about melee. If you watch a melee combat between two competent players in sfd like muse or scull, you would know that there are lots of tricky moves and combos which looks very cool. there are lots of melee moves that were derived from the classic " roll jump punch " combo. surprisingly melee in sfd can be compared to melee in tekken or mortal kombat! but all of these moves which were skillful and required good timing were ruined because of grabs. because when there is a powerful easy counter to block like grab, players didn't want to use the old moves.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
"If the kick was such a fine move, servers wouldn't be using the Uberkick script."
"If the physics engine was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Flow script."
"If the health system was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Healer script."
"If the movement system was so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Teleport script."
"If the mindgames were so fine, servers wouldn't be using the Fakedeath script."
Yes, except all of those scripts weren't aimed to render a game mechanic non functioning like the anti grab script. These scripts just enhanced a game mechanic and were just used for matches to be more fun. It was never used for competitive or serious matches but the anti grab script was made solely for making melee fights more intense and serious. This is why I said that people wouldn't be using the anti grab script if people liked the current melee system, and by " people ", I refer to most of the general community but you guys wouldn't consider the opinions of the dumb russians, asians and other " tryhard pro cancerous ;v " part of the general community to which I probably belong.
1 x

User avatar
KliPeH
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:03 pm
Title: worst moderator on the forum
SFD Account: KliPeH
Started SFD: Pre-Alpha 1.4.2
Gender:
Contact:

Post by KliPeH » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:49 pm

Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm
I've already said that I don't consider "waiting" a move. but waiting and punching is still a combo that could counter block and it isn't same as "doing nothing". I am not talking about other scenarios, but in case of blocks waiting and punching as a combo still seems to counter it.
Waiting and punching is a pattern that can counter blocking but not a move solely dedicated to hard-countering the block itself. When you're punching after waiting you're punching a person that has already dropped their block and is now standing there doing nothing. The devs specifically looked for a move that would interrupt a block while it is still up to discourage defensive behavior.
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm
Yes, and have you ever thought that someone can neutralize you in the same manner as well?
That's the whole point. It's a move anyone can execute and, if anything, as much a display of skill as surviving an ongoing barrage of attacks that don't include that very move. The "skill" requirement is that of anticipating the move coming out, positioning yourself properly, and reacting accordingly - chaining a move or two that lead to you grabbing the opponent instead and doing with them what you please. The only difference is that in my example this is the extent of the battle and that's where it will most likely end, and in yours it will drag on for an entire duration of a match; chip away at your opponent's health for 20-30 damage, run around, perhaps heal, perhaps find a ranged weapon, perhaps retreat to take a melee weapon out and do that all over again. It's prolonging the battle and making everyone wait needlessly.

SFD is designed to be a (fairly) fast game, what with all the crits, explosives, instagibs and randomly-spawning power weapons. Long melee battles don't really fit in. I guess this is why you have your dedicated melee servers and we have our casual vanilla servers.
I cannot disagree more with this part:
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm
This is why people don't like grabs. [...] neither does a lot of players. People want long and intense combats. I do agree that grabs achieved it's purpose in speeding up melee, but nobody wanted melee to end that quick.
I may not be in your league or whatever, but everyone I know wants the exact opposite of long and "intense" fights. By introducing the grab we have unlocked the potential for melee combat to end just as fast as a firefight can. I have seen Muse and Scully fight and "intense" was the last thing that went through my mind. More like bored, sad for the new players not even standing a chance to react to all those instantly-executed moves they use, infuriated by the amount of exploitation going on with the moves they like calling "pro" so much. What are you going to say when melee power weapons like the chainsaw or the shock baton are introduced? Ban them from melee-only servers too, right? Because those don't require "skill" to use either. This whole code-of-honor mentality (e.g "grabbing is a cheap move", "melee combat has a high skill ceiling", "a 1v1 melee fight is the only real way to test skill" etc.) needs to die.

There's a reason this "tryhard pro" part of the community is mocked and ridiculed this much.
0 x
 Image

User avatar
Gurt
Lead Programmer
Lead Programmer
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:22 pm
Title: Lead programmer
Started SFD: Made it!
Location: Sweden
Gender:
Age: 28

Post by Gurt » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:50 pm

KliPeH mentions another strong reason why we added the grab:
KliPeH wrote:..Watching people struggle in Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Guilty Gear or Skullgirls can be very entertaining, but SFD isn't like those games. There is not a thing that causes tension or joy in watching players occasionally boop eachother until one dies...
Some related topics:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=556
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=245

The grab fulfills its intended purpose to speed up melee encounters and discourage defensive behavior. Melee fights before the grab could drag on for ages between two players not knowing any better other than slapsticking each other to death. It could also result in an experienced player always winning melee fights over new players. This was something we wanted to change. The grab is an additional tool beyond attacking to progress melee fights.

From a new player's perspective it's better to have 2 offensive moves (attack and grab) against experienced melee fighters. Experienced melee fighters could before the grab pretty easily and consistent engage any new player and do this awkward punch-wait-block-rince-and-repeat cycle (or variations) and win the fight (because new players tend to mash attack or block and never wait). With the grab it's not as easy and consistent to engage any new player because it's a risk to performing the same move cycle over and over in case the new player decides to use grab instead of attack.

From an old player's perspective the grab removed many of the old and approved easy-to-use-melee-rotation-cycles that was easy and consistent against new players. This is a good thing as new players have a better chance in melee against experienced player without being eliminated over and over. (From this perspective I understand why old players want the grab removed because we removed their bread and butter :mrgreen: )

The grab was added for multiple reasons. You don't have to agree with us. I don't see a future where we (the developers to clarify) will remove the grab from SFD.
If you have suggestions about the grab (other than removing it): How should it be changed?
Try to word your idea so that you know and you are confident about what you're suggesting. All the pros and all the cons.
Give a short reason why the grab should be changed. Does it give any specific benefits to the gameplay worth mentioning?
5 x
Gurt

User avatar
Sree
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:19 pm
Title: Ocasmic AF
SFD Account: Sree
Gender:
Age: 18

Post by Sree » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:22 pm

Welp, Fair enough, If grabs were introduced to bring balance between the new and old players, I can't argue anymore here. a game should not only satisfy the old players, but the entire playerbase... thank you for " enlightening " me.
2 x

mgtr14
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:52 pm
Title: Ok.
SFD Account: OkOkOK
SFD Alias: Ok.
Started SFD: Ok.
Location: Ok....
Gender:
Contact:

Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:13 am

Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:50 pm

From a new player's perspective it's better to have 2 offensive moves (attack and grab) against experienced melee fighters. Experienced melee fighters could before the grab pretty easily and consistent engage any new player and do this awkward punch-wait-block-rince-and-repeat cycle (or variations) and win the fight (because new players tend to mash attack or block and never wait). With the grab it's not as easy and consistent to engage any new player because it's a risk to performing the same move cycle over and over in case the new player decides to use grab instead of attack.

The grab fulfills its intended purpose to speed up melee encounters and discourage defensive behavior. Melee fights before the grab could drag on for ages between two players not knowing any better other than slapsticking each other to death. It could also result in an experienced player always winning melee fights over new players. This was something we wanted to change. The grab is an additional tool beyond attacking to progress melee fights.
From an old player's perspective the grab removed many of the old and approved easy-to-use-melee-rotation-cycles that was easy and consistent against new players. This is a good thing as new players have a better chance in melee against experienced player without being eliminated over and over. (From this perspective I understand why old players want the grab removed because we removed their bread and butter :mrgreen: )
We could say the same to you, since you didn't know what we could do with melee, and probably just wrote that off as "Not real counters", you have given yourself this "bread and butter". A move that counters blocks way too well, and completing the RPS-cycle, as in just giving every inexperienced player a move that dishes it all out for him. Melee fights were quick enough before, this so called "slow pace" is the occasional half a second from timing your punch, and moving around in just the right way, up, down, left and right. I wouldn't say so much on this, since we could still throw this at each other back and forth, but this move really lowered the skill ceiling on melee. Before, All a new player would need to do, is just watch us and try to learn. "Oh, he punched me after i blocked! Maybe i shouldn't block so much then?", but that may already be asking too much from this playerbase?
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:49 pm
That's the whole point. It's a move anyone can execute and, if anything, as much a display of skill as surviving an ongoing barrage of attacks that don't include that very move. The "skill" requirement is that of anticipating the move coming out, positioning yourself properly, and reacting accordingly - chaining a move or two that lead to you grabbing the opponent instead and doing with them what you please. The only difference is that in my example this is the extent of the battle and that's where it will most likely end, and in yours it will drag on for an entire duration of a match; chip away at your opponent's health for 20-30 damage, run around, perhaps heal, perhaps find a ranged weapon, perhaps retreat to take a melee weapon out and do that all over again. It's prolonging the battle and making everyone wait needlessly.
"Grabbing the opponent and doing with them what you please"
owo

People still run away anyways, grabs don't force you to stay in the fight. Again, melee was quick enough before, all you would need is a good environment and it's fair game. Ironically, grabs have made more people run away now.
Still, melee fights were quick enough before. If you couldn't grab him there, you would tried to kick him off, and that could work too, yeah? Difference is, you would need more skill, timing, positioning, maybe even combos, his attempts at retaliation, etc.

KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
...Slap-fighting might be a display of skill but is ultimately boring for the other players. It might've not been so had the melee moves looked more spectacular or dramatic, or had the moves been more varied, but that's not the case. Watching people struggle in Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Guilty Gear or Skullgirls can be very entertaining, but SFD isn't like those games.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:49 pm
I cannot disagree more with this part:
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:04 pm
This is why people don't like grabs. [...] neither does a lot of players. People want long and intense combats. I do agree that grabs achieved it's purpose in speeding up melee, but nobody wanted melee to end that quick.
I may not be in your league or whatever, but everyone I know wants the exact opposite of long and "intense" fights. By introducing the grab we have unlocked the potential for melee combat to end just as fast as a firefight can. I have seen Muse and Scully fight and "intense" was the last thing that went through my mind. More like bored, sad for the new players not even standing a chance to react to all those instantly-executed moves they use, infuriated by the amount of exploitation going on with the moves they like calling "pro" so much.
I just noticed this now, but whenever you talk about "Not intense" fights, it's always because you're just watching it. If I was fighting scull or muse in melee, I would be absolutely thrilled; even if I was just watching a throwdown between scull and muse. I could understand if you find it boring to watch a good fight, but just imagine being in it, watching out for all swings and trying to catch your opponent out. That's when melee is fun.
While I do just barely agree with what you're saying about those kind of moves, with them being "exploits" or whatever, they were functional and consistent. they're necessary, because that's what makes melee quick. Grab wouldn't accomplish that on it's own, because we usually use those kind of moves to land a free grab anyways. In short, those kind of moves are needed. Maybe we could make melee faster in some other, better way. But as far as I see, those moves work.
I'm fine with new moves, but the devs are still refusing to just see how melee really is, yet they listen to people like you, and almost block out what we say. So just take this move as a result of that, even if you're fine with it.

Also, I have an idea on how to make melee look more varied, that's for another topic.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
Someone here said that melee combat is now centered around leading your opponent into getting grabbed, it might've been you, and I agree with this entirely. I'm not opposed to the idea either.
Except that grabs are out of place for our current melee system. But wording it like that, gave me another idea. What if we made the grab an actual power move, one that we could still lead up too, but not on demand? As in maybe, you would need to somewhat incapacitate your opponent before being able to grab them? Just a suggestion that I should expand on someday.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
Again, "waiting" is not a move. That's like saying a counter to running away is waiting for you to miscalculate a jump and fall to your death. I can't tell you why the grab has to be this powerful, just that waiting was never a dedicated counter-move to begin with and that it being powerful is an incentive for players to use it. Players are encouraged to use it because:
Sree wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:49 am
grabs never managed to speed up melee, the only thing it managed was to make players not melee anymore.
They did manage to speed melee combat up though, even if that meant not entirely participating in it. I can jump in on someone entrenched in a well defended spot, quickly grab them, throw them off an edge and continue running around with one less threat on the playfield. That threat blocked a part of the map, consumed resources and caused a stoppage in the flow of combat, but has been neutralized because grabbing and throwing are now an option. The grab is still a part of the melee system, right? Ergo it is still considered melee combat, even if it's not as time-consuming as it used to be.
I do agree That waiting is, well, waiting. But again, that's just for half a second. It blended in well before anyways, and is still a proper way to "counter" blocks.
I've also already explained why the grab is still out of place for our current melee system, explain instead why it isn't. (And how about you thoroughly read my previous post?)
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:49 pm
SFD is designed to be a (fairly) fast game, what with all the crits, explosives, instagibs and randomly-spawning power weapons. Long melee battles don't really fit in. I guess this is why you have your dedicated melee servers and we have our casual vanilla servers.
We could accomplish this in other ways, other than just snuffing players out with bad luck. I'll probably make a post about this in the future.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:49 pm
What are you going to say when melee power weapons like the chainsaw or the shock baton are introduced? Ban them from melee-only servers too, right? Because those don't require "skill" to use either. This whole code-of-honor mentality (e.g "grabbing is a cheap move", "melee combat has a high skill ceiling", "a 1v1 melee fight is the only real way to test skill" etc.) needs to die.

There's a reason this "tryhard pro" part of the community is mocked and ridiculed this much.
KliPeH wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:34 am
I'd rather have a "bullshit" move that can instantly end my game than watch a couple of [BR]PRO_MELLE_MATSER_>;V's slap eachother around for half an hour.
Quit this bullshit, we're against grabs because we actually think it's OP and unfair.

Also, I have told you about a couple of ideas already to nerf the grab or maybe even repurpose it. I'm mostly just saying Why the grab is OP at the moment. Suggestions later, it would make it easier if the community agreed and want to change the grab.
1 x
Ok.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest