Recovery Roll System and Quick Roll Nerf should be abolished

[2_Wraith]

The new recovery roll system that they added to the game really disappointed me as it helped set up comboes and counter cheap grab attacks.I strongly suggest its brought back as it gave a balance to melee but now the whole melee system is trash.I even spoke to gurt about the new system and he said ''it stops cheesy melee''. I find that comment contradicting as they added chainsaws which need no skill or technique to wield also grabs are still in the game.I really hope the abolish this system i paid money for a good game and other people feel the same way about this new system

The new meta now is chainsaw rape,Shock Baton grab spam or run and gun which annoy people,Like they add a melee weapon that defects all bullets but a quick roll gets removed like wtf ?.I bought this game expecting more guns ands new features not to remove the one thing i felt was a bit balance melee.Personally i like the game thats the only problem i have with it.I would appreciate it if you fixed this issue and put it back to how it was before .Please take this suggestion into consideration

[Merchant]

In general the game's release wasn't disappointing, new guns, challenges, clothing etc.. But when it comes to the game's one big feature: melee, im with you Wraith. Melee used to be alot more skill based, and yes, ping based also, but i think that changing the recovery roll to what it is now wasn't the best solution. Im not a game developer myself, but im sure that we as a community and with the developers can think of a way that makes the recovery roll come back and NOT make it ping based.
Recovery roll was a really good feature, especially when it comes to melee, you were able to come up with many combos, combos that were mostly unfair because of the ping difference (imo), but the fact that you had to really learn how to make them balances the fact that they were usually were brutal.
Now melee feels really strict, once you press punch you can't cancel it, you used to with the good old roll, but not anymore. Once you press punch, you're commited to punch. - Me, myself im not too keen on that, because missclicks happen quite often for me, yes i agree that's my keyboards fault and probably mine aswell, but atleast back when the roll still existed i was able to fix my problem of missclicking buttons with the good ol' roll. Now there's nothing i can do about it, yes that was a bad exmaple because it's mostly my fault but i hope you get the point. Recovery roll added more spice to melee and the gameplay in general.

Sincerely, Merchant.

[Sree]

let's also make the game server side by making it client side

[Sh4d0w]

let's also make the game server side by making it client side

nerf chainsaw by buffing flamethrower

[RickAvory]

Melee is so stiff and restricted since this update. Buffs before nerfs. Wish I had more control over my player.

[Evilsack]

let's also make the game server side by making it client side

he's most likely referring to the current recovery roll system, and most likely talking about bringing back the previous one. i got that from actually reading it.

[Gurt]

Not everyone runs around with a chainsaw and the chainsaw is the equivalent to the bazooka (which not everyone runs around with either).

The roll during melee works like this:
Any roll requires you to roll for a minimum of 50 ms.
Rolling during an attack will force you to roll for the remaining cooldown time of that attack.
This was done to prevent the possibility to attack, roll+jump+attack within a few frames to get in two attacks at the same time. If you jumped up on higher ground (like a nearby crate) you could instantly kick, drop down from the crate (and doing an air attack on the way down), punch, roll+jump+attack and rince-repeat - effectively stunlocking your opponent until he/she was dead. This was problematic.

An alternative approach would be to remove the remaining cooldown from attacks as forced roll time and prevent you from doing jump-attacks instead if you jump out of rolls. Give it a thought, share your ideas, because that attack and roll+jump+attack was causing unwanted cheesy exploitable melee stunlocks (in the worste-case-scenarios).

[Lunatic]

The silly thing about the current recovery roll system is that it doesn't really fix what people have a problem with in the first place - cheesy, abusive combos. The running gag me and my friends have going is that "you can only recovery roll when you have nothing to recover from". Recovery rolls gained the ability to dodge grabs when rolling away from the grabber, but lost the ability to do so when hit by an aerial punch. This defeats the whole damn purpose! Furthermore, players get up pretty much instantly after hitting the ground, which means your window for avoiding a grab is incredibly tight - which is also only available if you fall from a moderate distance or are hit by a falling kick. Overall this change was next to useless for it's intended purpose as it really just means players use a punch and not a kick, which is more damage, and can still throw for big distance.

Furthermore, as Merchant stated, once you start a punch, you're forced to be committed to it. This would be acceptable if melee was a faster process, but the speed players attack at is enough time to eat some damage or otherwise be set up for serious disadvantage without opportunity to roll out. I'm not particularly upset at the loss of a non-committal melee system but it's still flawed due to lack of faster neutral or pokes etc. This issue is more of a concern due to melee's slower, clunkier design and lack of moves that come out while the player is still moving.

The best course of action for making the recovery roll relevant would just be to buff it fully. Make it immune to all forms of melee combat (except maybe a dive?). You're doing a recovery roll to avoid melee in the first place, and it eats up your roll cooldown. There's no reason for it to be as bad as it is when the input timing for it is so tight. Just make the damn defensive move good.

Also the chainsaw is a power weapon lmao it's a bazooka for the melee slot. Don't bitch about that one.

[Gurt]

I think you're mixing up what we call recovery rolls and ordinary rolls here. Recovery rolls are only the rolls you can active while you're laying on the ground and you can't do it in every situation.

We have said it before but worth mentioning again I guess. We're happy with where the melee system is at after years of development and testing. If we had another lifetime to spend we might redo and try another melee system, time and energy we don't have anymore. Please focus on the rolling cooldown mechanic if you have anything specific to say about that in this topic if you want to see changes. I have said why we added the rolling cooldown when cancelling attacks using a roll and if there's another way of solving said problems (without introducing a dozens of new ones) you're welcome to suggest something. This is about small tweaks and not redesigning the entire melee system.

[2_Wraith]

''This was done to prevent the possibility to attack, roll+jump+attack within a few frames to get in two attacks at the same time. If you jumped up on higher ground (like a nearby crate) you could instantly kick, drop down from the crate (and doing an air attack on the way down), punch, roll+jump+attack and rince-repeat - effectively stunlocking your opponent until he/she was dead. This was problematic''.

If roll stuns people then wtf does the chainsaw and shockbaton do ? again u contradicted yourself the quick roll brought more of a balance to the game.You even have to call a quick roll attack cheesy but grab is in the game which gives you an option to throw someone or punch them and they have no choice.In my opinion this new melee system is fucked.R.I.P melee balance dont be ignorant and take the suggestion into consideration

[Sh4d0w]

roll
stuns
P E O P L E

hell yeah it does stun people like i roll into random people and they get stunned
also did you know that walking instakills all the opponents
sfd fact

[KliPeH]

The new meta now is chainsaw rape,Shock Baton grab spam or run and gun [...]

If roll stuns people then wtf does the chainsaw and shockbaton do ? again u contradicted yourself [...]

The chainsaw is a melee power-weapon the equivalent of a bazooka. So is the shock baton, even though it's not as powerful potentially I'd consider it somewhat of a power weapon too. Both are relatively rare. Wouldn't "meta" imply something is as efficient as it is reliable to obtain and use? I wouldn't call rare drops "meta", you don't acquire those every game. I'd say dropping from a barrel/crate/table into double-kick into grab is "meta", it's a reliable combo you execute given the means and it has a huge damage output compared to the way the moves were initially supposed to be used in seperate. It's the optimization of the moveset which makes it "meta", correct me if I'm wrong. Getting lucky with a good drop isn't "meta".

Apart from that, running and gunning was always meta, that's nothing "new".

[RickAvory]

The new meta now is chainsaw rape,Shock Baton grab spam or run and gun [...]

If roll stuns people then wtf does the chainsaw and shockbaton do ? again u contradicted yourself [...]

The chainsaw is a melee power-weapon the equivalent of a bazooka. So is the shock baton, even though it's not as powerful potentially I'd consider it somewhat of a power weapon too. Both are relatively rare. Wouldn't "meta" imply something is as efficient as it is reliable to obtain and use? I wouldn't call rare drops "meta", you don't acquire those every game. I'd say dropping from a barrel/crate/table into double-kick into grab is "meta", it's a reliable combo you execute given the means and it has a huge damage output compared to the way the moves were initially supposed to be used seperately. It's the optimization of the moveset which makes it "meta", correct me if I'm wrong. Getting lucky with a good drop isn't exactly "meta".

Apart from that, running and gunning was always meta, that's nothing "new".

You know what... although I don’t like this new nerf to rolling, I will just suck it up and get used to it. I recommend others do the same. We did it for the grab and we can do it again here. I recall the devs saying something along the lines of “Everytime there is a Major update people hate it”. In a years time I bet you will forget all about that damn recovery roll and new tricks will be learned. Just stay positive

[KliPeH]

[...] Gurt wants to take off the ability to cancel a punch with a roll to jump and punch again.

Why tho...? No one ever complained about it, we liked that a lot, it added more possibilities and skill in melee. [...]

Many people complained about it. I can complain about it now if you want. It's a bullshit move that deals damage the opponent cannot possibly react to, whether because it's physically impossible for them to (which I'm almost certain was the case here) or simply isn't feasible with a high ping difference. It's about sleight of hand, not entirely "skill"; you could do this to someone whenever and you'd deal free damage, it would simply be more profitable if you did this under better conditions to continue stunlocking the enemy and fucking them over more severely. It's free damage, it's cheese. It's not good game design. I may not agree with the general recovery roll nerf but regardless that combo was awful, especially if you were in the vicinity of a barrel/crate/table like Gurt mentioned or in an enclosed space (with a low roof) like an elevator. I'm glad the era of punch into roll into slam for free damage is over.

[Ab Hab]

Something I really appreciate about this game is that everything has a counter. If someone's running away, you throw stuff at 'em. If someone is camping, go ahead and use some explosives. You can even counter the chainsaw by using a gun and NOT AIMING DIRECTLY FOR THE CHAINSAW. Some stuff even has a bunch of counters, like the grab.

The recovery roll didn't have a counter.
Because of this, I always saw it as an exploit, and viewed everyone who used it as a scumbag. You might not know what an exploit is, but it's basically a glitch in a game that gives you an unintended advantage (an example would be something like falling from a high ledge but landing on your feet on the corner of a crate negating fall damage).

[2_Wraith]

[...] Gurt wants to take off the ability to cancel a punch with a roll to jump and punch again.

Why tho...? No one ever complained about it, we liked that a lot, it added more possibilities and skill in melee. [...]

Many people complained about it. I can complain about it now if you want. It's a bullshit move that deals damage the opponent cannot possibly react to, whether because it's physically impossible for them to (which I'm almost certain was the case here) or simply isn't feasible with a high ping difference. It's about sleight of hand, not entirely "skill"; you could do this to someone whenever and you'd deal free damage, it would simply be more profitable if you did this under better conditions to continue stunlocking the enemy and fucking them over more severely. It's free damage, it's cheese. It's not good game design. I may not agree with the general recovery roll nerf but regardless that combo was awful, especially if you were in the vicinity of a barrel/crate/table like Gurt mentioned or in an enclosed space (with a low roof) like an elevator. I'm glad the era of punch into roll into slam for free damage is over.

Klipeh how can you call a roll a bullshit move but you dont call grab a bullshit move ffs these people drinking something

Also chainsaws consistantly drop i see more chainsaws than shock batons and its so stupid like the opponent has no chance

[KliPeH]

Klipeh how can you call a roll a bullshit move but you dont call grab a bullshit move ffs these people drinking something

You're missing the point. The roll itself isn't bullshit, the recovery roll move is still in the game although not in its "purest" form (you can't recovery roll from hits but you do so off the ground if I understand correctly). I don't have a problem with that. What is bullshit is it's interaction with the jump attack move ("slam"). I explained why in my previous post. I'm glad that moveset is no longer exploitable. Maybe the game was made "slower" but definitely not require less "skill"; now you may have to think about what you do instead of blindly rolling and jumping around like an ass. I don't know if you can call what we have now a "recovery roll" since the nerf, I'm not arguing against your terminology. I'm simply stating the way the roll was used in combination with the jump attack was broken and it's good to see it go.

Also chainsaws consistantly drop i see more chainsaws than shock batons and its so stupid like the opponent has no chance

I see more chainsaws than shock batons too, they're still fairly rare though. Like, it's statistically unlike you'll see a rare item drop "consistently", if you do the server may have custom drop settings (in a form of a script) or the drop rate may be bugged.

Off Topic

You're starting to get overly aggressive with your replies. I've had to remove that last one and issue you a Rule #3 warning. Calm down, we're discussing a change made to the game; nobody's insulting you or the point you're trying to get across. If you bring good points up people will agree, if not they'll argue against them. Don't resort to name calling, we're all trying to keep the conversation civil.

[Motto73]

(Translated)
WHYy dDiD YoOU aDdD RrECcovVErRy RoOlL i caNnt kilLlL NOoBBs InN oNNE CombO ANYmoRE itTs ReALLY aaNnOoyING do yOoU ExPECt me tTO uUsE faiR PLlaY BeCAUSe yoURe ALl rEtarDs If YoU ThiNK so

[RickAvory]

(Translated)
WHYy dDiD YoOU aDdD RrECcovVErRy RoOlL i caNnt kilLlL NOoBBs InN oNNE CombO ANYmoRE itTs ReALLY aaNnOoyING do yOoU ExPECt me tTO uUsE faiR PLlaY BeCAUSe yoURe ALl rEtarDs If YoU ThiNK so

I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.

[Motto73]

--
I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.

I have to agree to that strengthening defensive melee is times better than weakening offensive melee. I still think that anything that gives you the possibility to avoid getting stunlocked by a melle pro who'd just kill you with the one combo is a plus. A big part of the community is heavily focused on only melee. The game is all about chaos, and using a reoccuring ruleset of certain moves every time does not contribute to the idea of the game at all. The game is much more than perfectly timed melee attacks on players that can't use melee at all. Every time I see a new player getting absolutely wasted by an experienced melee fighter without dealing any damage or chance to get away and then quitting the game I just wanna quit too. People are complaining far too much about melee in the forums. After all it is up to Gurt and Hjärpe what the game will be like, getting aggressive here doesn't do shit.