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Cancelling the 'three punch combo' cooldown

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Cancelling the 'three punch combo' cooldown

Post by MScull » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:01 am

When you roll at the exact same time your third punch begins, you will still do the third punch but also cancel the cooldown by rolling. This allows for a combo of a total of four hits. In the video below is a demonstration of this bug. The bug is being used in a variety of ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfEnMQ03fDY

I've tested this bug in a lot of different situations and have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to do in the map-editor/tutorial. The lower your ping is, the harder it becomes.
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Post by Sree » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:10 am

This move is one of the hardest melee moves to pull off, whether it be a bug or not.

It doesn't really become harder with lower ping, It is hard to pull off the ping in 1 - 30 ping but that's because you are doing it way too quickly. when you are playing in about 70 - 120 ping, even if you do it really quick, the ping delay will make up for it (hence why people find it easier to do it on higher ping)

I Insist that this stays the way it is, the move requires perfect timing to pull it off and it isn't much impactive considering that it's very situational.
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Post by [Failman] » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:26 am

Sree wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:10 am
This move is one of the hardest melee moves to pull off, whether it be a bug or not.

It doesn't really become harder with lower ping, It is hard to pull off the ping in 1 - 30 ping but that's because you are doing it way too quickly. when you are playing in about 70 - 120 ping, even if you do it really quick, the ping delay will make up for it (hence why people find it easier to do it on higher ping)

I Insist that this stays the way it is, the move requires perfect timing to pull it off and it isn't much impactive considering that it's very situational.

It’s kinda broken though, with this you can bypass blocks since the third punch both pushes and stagger players. Well that doesn’t exacly mean it’s any less easier to perform but it is a topic worth debating about. Personally I have mixed feelings on this move since it’s both hard to do and can’t be counter or at least I’m not aware of anyway to counter it.
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Post by Sree » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:04 pm

[Failman] wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:26 am
Sree wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:10 am
This move is one of the hardest melee moves to pull off, whether it be a bug or not.

It doesn't really become harder with lower ping, It is hard to pull off the ping in 1 - 30 ping but that's because you are doing it way too quickly. when you are playing in about 70 - 120 ping, even if you do it really quick, the ping delay will make up for it (hence why people find it easier to do it on higher ping)

I Insist that this stays the way it is, the move requires perfect timing to pull it off and it isn't much impactive considering that it's very situational.

It’s kinda broken though, with this you can bypass blocks since the third punch both pushes and stagger players. Well that doesn’t exacly mean it’s any less easier to perform but it is a topic worth debating about. Personally I have mixed feelings on this move since it’s both hard to do and can’t be counter or at least I’m not aware of anyway to counter it.
Whether you exploit this tactic or not, You can still bypass a block by simply punching after you roll and jump after punching someone.However the actual advantage of this exploit is when you combo the 3 punches with a really swift jump punch or jump kick, It could knock off the player much more further which could be really fatal. I would still not prefer the word " broken " since this move is highly situational and there are plenty other combos in the game that is much more impactive and can be performed effortlessly compared to this one.

About countering this move, The way is to ensure that you are not getting punched 3 times in a row since the 3rd punch is essential to perform the move. the point I am trying to make is whether it be a bug or not, this move is really hard to pull off and can be considered a high skill aspect of melee. The fact that this move can be very fatal with the extra knock off (depending on the circumstances) is still not as intimidating as a grab which can end you effortlessly depending on the situation.
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Post by Del Poncho » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:58 pm

This is "broken" because of the increasingly difficulty to do this with a better ping.

Wether this should or shouldn't be an acceptable move, the fact that not every player can land this 4th hit with the same difficulty is just wrong.

I'm personally not a fan of all these cooldowns, melee has been quite cheesy lately, but if this move (and others) stay, I think they should have more "regulations", to allow people with a good ping to land them too.
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Post by Sree » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:58 pm
This is "broken" because of the increasingly difficulty to do this with a better ping.

Wether this should or shouldn't be an acceptable move, the fact that not every player can land this 4th hit with the same difficulty is just wrong.

I'm personally not a fan of all these cooldowns, melee has been quite cheesy lately, but if this move (and others) stay, I think they should have more "regulations", to allow people with a good ping to land them too.
I could name plenty of things that puts players with bad ping into a disadvantage against players with better ping, so are those all broken? This is probably the only move in the game that favors players with worse ping, almost everything else favors players with good ping like melee as a whole is ridiculously hard with higher ping.

While I do believe and agree with you that every player should be able to use this move irrespective of ping, I still don't agree with the move being broken because it favors players with a little bit higher ping.
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Post by Del Poncho » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:58 pm

Sree wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:33 pm
Del Poncho wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:58 pm
This is "broken" because of the increasingly difficulty to do this with a better ping.

Wether this should or shouldn't be an acceptable move, the fact that not every player can land this 4th hit with the same difficulty is just wrong.

I'm personally not a fan of all these cooldowns, melee has been quite cheesy lately, but if this move (and others) stay, I think they should have more "regulations", to allow people with a good ping to land them too.
I could name plenty of things that puts players with bad ping into a disadvantage against players with better ping, so are those all broken? This is probably the only move in the game that favors players with worse ping, almost everything else favors players with good ping like melee as a whole is ridiculously hard with higher ping.

While I do believe and agree with you that every player should be able to use this move irrespective of ping, I still don't agree with the move being broken because it favors players with a little bit higher ping.
Having a bad ping should not be balanced. I don't think that players should be "encouraged" to stay in a server if their ping is high.

But yeah, by "broken" I didn't mean to say that it's OP or anything. I meant it as a way to say that it should be looked up and fixed, wether it's something that should or shouldn't be in the game.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:51 am

Never thought I'd agree with Del Poncho about things. Melee is cheesy, melee does have a lot of cooldown that I too dislike, and the move can be considered a problem and looked into.

imo SFD melee is about bypassing cooldowns as much as possible to keep your offense strong without losing any defense. I don't know why you would bother having all these cooldowns and things if the point of melee is to bypass them (like kneel etc) as much as possible. Punch roll punch should definitely be removed or set up to be a consistent thing. Don't leave us in the air about it.
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Post by Morpheus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:43 am

Make that a total of 5 hits.
This should convince the devs.
Image




With gifted fast fingers from god and a small little program, I was able to jack my latency up on my localserver to do a little testing.
I found out I could execute a total of 5 hits with this move. Who knows, maybe more.


Despite it's awesomeness This move should just be eradicated. The devs made a rule. 3 consecutive hits are punished with a cooldown.
This is what we call a bug. You can see that it didn't even show the third hit but it still gave that knockdown animation for me.
And the hit boxes are way off.
This game is not made to justify people with high ping, no offense.
If you have high ping, fix your internet or if it's a distance issue, join another server.

You wont hear of games allowing this.
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Post by Sree » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:54 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:51 am
I don't know why you would bother having all these cooldowns and things if the point of melee is to bypass them (like kneel etc) as much as possible.
You have a wrong perspective in these cooldowns then. These cooldowns aren't simply there for no reason, I believe they are what limits these combos and renders them impossible in most circumstances. If there were no cooldowns, anyone would be able to pull off these moves with less effort and no concern and that would be hell.
Lunatic wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:51 am
Punch roll punch should definitely be removed
Oh, why not just remove melee as a whole?

I find it absolutely ironic how most people wants the melee to be fast paced and dynamic but at the same time wants cooldowns and limitations of melee less exploitable, You can only have one at the same time. I would also like to address this really bad concept most people believe in, that is sfd's melee system is symbolically similar to and must be like a game of rock paper scissors. well no, Melee should be nothing like a game of rock paper scissors and no one would like melee if it was extremely static and takes nothing but a huge chunk of luck to win.. like a game of rock paper scissors usually does.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:43 am
Make that a total of 5 hits.
This should convince the devs.
Image

With gifted fast fingers from god and a small little program, I was able to jack my latency up on my localserver to do a little testing.
I found out I could execute a total of 5 hits with this move. Who knows, maybe more.
Try doing that move in a server where you get a static and organic high ping. If you do a little bit of research you would know that a normal and static 300 or higher ping is distinct from the same ping when it is not static and caused by unstable internet or when you manually use a " little program " to jack your ping up, The latter is always more impactive and exploitable.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:43 am

This is what we call a bug. You can see that it didn't even show the third hit but it still gave that knockdown animation for me.
And the hit boxes are way off.
You can't really call it a bug when you used exploits like that small little program to boost your ping up so that you can perform that move. it's the same as me using an exploit to enhance my aim in a game and call the game's aiming system buggy.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:43 am
This game is not made to justify people with high ping, no offense.
If you have high ping, fix your internet or if it's a distance issue, join another server.

You wont hear of games allowing this.
I believe you are indicating me with that line since I play mostly with high ping and majority of the players including yourself know of it. I never claimed that the game should be lenient towards players with high ping, I just explained why It would be stupid to remove a move because it gives a little advantage to a player with high ping when every other mechanics in the game is harsh to such players.
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Post by Morpheus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm

Sree wrote: Try doing that move in a server where you get a static and organic high ping. If you do a little bit of research you would know that a normal and static 300 or higher ping is distinct from the same ping when it is not static and caused by unstable internet or when you manually use a " little program " to jack your ping up, The latter is always more impactive and exploitable.
Not sure what you mean by static ping. Ping can fluctuate at any time due to lots of things. If you mean ping bumping up and down within a certain range then yes.

All that program did was capture packets and delayed them from being sent to the local server.
Which is similar to what long distance connections and bad Wi-Fi signals experience.
I’am pretty sure anybody will be able to pull off this move without the use of non-“organic high ping” and some fast fingers xd.
And obviously the latter is more impactful and exploitable because people can jack up their ping whenever they like in order to bypass some code!
Sree wrote: You can't really call it a bug when you used exploits like that small little program to boost your ping up so that you can perform that move. it's the same as me using an exploit to enhance my aim in a game and call the game's aiming system buggy.
And yes using that to exploit to the game furthers the reason why the move should be catered to. The program is not what I would consider an exploit itself. That program was not made for the move I just performed. I must admit I did use it for a silly purpose to prove something.Take note
this move can be performed without this program.

Sree wrote: I believe you are indicating me with that line since I play mostly with high ping and majority of the players including yourself know of it. I never claimed that the game should be lenient towards players with high ping, I just explained why It would be stupid to remove a move because it gives a little advantage to a player with high ping when every other mechanics in the game is harsh to such players.
Yeah I’m pretty sure I indicated myself too since I like to play on American servers with my American friends nonetheless with high ping. Don’t be ridiculous! I know way more other players that play at certain levels of high ping than just you sree.

I don’t want new people playing the game finding out that this type move can only be executed when you have high ping then further frustrating them when they can't perform it normally. It’s a game we want to see on Steam, with good reviews. I want it to be normal in the way server communicates to client as with client communicates to server abiding by the game code as well.

The game should abide by it’s rules as the devs made it to be.
Either Gurt and Hjarpe maybe add to the melee rules, or maybe fix it.
You don’t hear of other games tolerating players to perform other moves defying the rules based on how high their ping is. It’s kinda wrong.
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Post by Sree » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:22 pm

Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm
All that program did was capture packets and delayed them from being sent to the local server.
Which is similar to what long distance connections and bad Wi-Fi signals experience.
I’am pretty sure anybody will be able to pull off this move without the use of non-“organic high ping” and some fast fingers xd.
And obviously the latter is more impactful and exploitable because people can jack up their ping whenever they like in order to bypass some code!
Using programs to delay packets like is never accurate and is not comparable to the delay due to long distance connection. Delaying packets is what mostly all exploits do. It's pretty obvious from your gif that the delay wasn't just 300 ms, The entire animation of the 3rd punch was delayed and you were even able to pull off a kick and a hit while you were jumping. I've tried fucking around with mods like these in sfd and even when my ping count might be on 300 or 400, it feels like there is a much higher delay.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm
And yes using that to exploit to the game furthers the reason why the move should be catered to. The program is not what I would consider an exploit itself. That program was not made for the move I just performed. I must admit I did use it for a silly purpose to prove something.Take note
this move can be performed without this program.
If you are using the program to pull of a move that is not by design, then the program is an exploit. If you are gonna claim that the move can be performed without this program, then send an actual footage of you performing it without it. 300 ms delay isn't gonna entirely delay the 3rd punch animation or delay the jump kick for a certain duration where you can trick the game engine to perform a jump punch simultaneously.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm
Yeah I’m pretty sure I indicated myself too since I like to play on American servers with my American friends nonetheless with high ping. Don’t be ridiculous! I know way more other players that play at certain levels of high ping than just you sree.
Oh so you were indicating yourself too. You were telling yourself that you are not trying to offend yourself and you were telling yourself to fix your internet if you have high ping, how self deprecating! well that's a bad way of indication. you shouldn't be even blaming me for getting you wrong since you were the one to express your point in an incoherent way.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm
I want it to be normal in the way server communicates to client as with client communicates to server abiding by the game code as well.
server side should be implemented then. You can't expect hosts to be in possession of an organized database that collects and sends accordingly. bad pings will always be prevalent and the delay will trick the game engine to a certain extent.
Morpheus wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:03 pm
You don’t hear of other games tolerating players to perform other moves defying the rules based on how high their ping is. It’s kinda wrong.
Yeah, because most other games have better engines and have server side implemented.
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Post by Gurt » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:13 pm

SFD uses partially trusted clients for the network code. Removing the ping is impossible and hiding it is very challenging and hard. Other games with big teams with more RESOURCES and EXPERTISE and TIME pull this off very effectively.
Anyway, we will look into this as it's not intentional designed to work this way.

Locking this because the bug has been reported.
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Post by Gurt » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:20 pm

Fixed for the release version.
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