Grab review + recommended changes

[Lunatic]

We're finally there! Alpha 1.0.0 has finally launched, and with it, what I've waited so long for: Grabbing! We can finally run up and take someone by the collar to teach 'em what for, and more importantly, to beat blocks. While the move itself feels like it needs some ironing out, melee has felt more exciting, dynamic, and engaging than even my old favorite, version 1.2.1b. SFD has come a long ways from what it used to be!

Before I get into what changes I believe need to be made the move, let's talk about the move itself, what it does/how powerful it is, and it's usage.

Grabs are pretty straightforward: You press attack and block at the same time, you enter an animation for a hot second, and then charge forward in an attempt to grab hold of someone. The move itself has plenty of interaction with other facets of the game, which makes it feel like it had a home all along; like it's been a part of the game for ages. One of the better pieces of this move is that you can pick up dead bodies, perfect for soaking up bullets, or even for sticking in someone's hands when they try to dive at you! It isn't a fail-proof plan, however, since it leaves your ankles free to shoot by whoever decides to crouch and hipfire. I think it's a great touch and have already put the maneuver to good use. Better interaction between guns and melee: Priceless.

So, let's get more into how the move feels. I'll start with the positives, since currently, I have pretty high outlooks for this move!

• The act of charging and grabbing someone feels pretty good. The movement speed as you charge stands out - is it sprint speed? It seems to work!
• The power punch! That animation is great, I love it.
• Throwing doesn't go too far, but not too short. It's in a great spot overall, and thanks to the height of the throw arc, the damage is negligible if you don't take a drop.
• Grab vs Grab is great, it's a decent defensive strategy to nullify the move and keep yourself safe - hell, if you have the range advantage with melee weapons, this could turn out to be beneficial for you!
• Picking up bodies! Very effective, very fun, very well done. Balanced out nicely by the opening at the ankles, I love it.
• Grab range doesn't seem extreme in any direction. Too short or too long and it would feel busted - glad to say it feels fine as-is!

So in terms of the charge itself, picking up bodies, and the throwing players portions of the move, I'd say it was done near perfectly. However, the entire move doesn't quite feel perfect. In descending importance, some of the issues I perceive the move to have are:

• Grabbing is a combination block and attack. The inputs are rough and as a result causes the move to be difficult to perform consistently.
• The cooldown after grabbing is pretty lengthy. This combined with issue #1 causes mis-inputs if you try to grab but can't.
• The startup of the move is enormous. It's very easily reactible, and as a result it can be tough to catch blocks you read or players moving quickly around you.
• The Power Punch deals 17 damage! That's two fist hits worth of damage, or 2 more damage than one hit of a katana (or one point less than a revolver shot!) Big damage indeed.
• Dropping a player you're holding by pressing the throw button drops them with full control of their character instead of making them land flailing at your feet.
• The charging animation/grab windup animation looks pretty silly.

Don't get me wrong, as a first public iteration of the move, I'd say it's working well. I've been able to catch blocks and deal damage, I've been able to control fights better by positioning enemies or removing them completely, and I've been able to soak some bullets with poor Jack's body. The game feels fresh and alive, and most importantly: Dynamic. Melee feels like a high functioning mechanic now, and thanks to it's good interaction between melee and gunning, Grabs really feel like they round out what an entire branch of the game was missing. With some tweaks and changes, I believe this portion of the game can be polished off and make the game feel shiny and squeaky clean.

To address the points above, I'll go from top to bottom with recommended changes or ideas to make the move feel better to use and make it feel more balanced.

• Make grabs their own key, or as I've seen suggested before, make the reload button a grab button. I'd rather see a separate bindable key that could be binded reload, but isn't forced to be.
• I think the cooldown on grabs is too much - players need to be punished for not simply spamming attack, if someone is spamming grabs (Yes, it's really that simple). The endlag on actually attacking or throwing someone is pretty good, players have ample time to get up and defend themselves. I'd lower the cooldown on grabs to 1 second to gives players a chance to use grabs more often in heated combat - losing a grab by attempting and getting hit is damning when you're forced to cooldown when you need it.
• The cooldown being too long makes it pretty difficult to land the move when you need it. It doesn't necessarily need to be punch speed fast, but it definitely needs to be faster than what it is.
• If the above two changes are considered, the damage for a power punch should be lowered. I think a power punch should be decent damage, but no more than 10, especially if the move is sped up a little in a couple regards. No less than 8.5, I guess.
• Please make dropped players fall flat on their face. They're already flailing in your arms.
• Animation changes aren't exactly things I can recommend.
• Concerning the changes above about speeding up the use of the move and lowering the cooldown, I can see some short endlag after attempting a grab existing. If they grab and miss, you'll have a small window to punish them for the mistake.

I'm glad to see that grabs are here, and will continue to throw my two bits in whenever I see the chance, if it'll help the game continue to grow positively. I hope that what I've said here today will be considered and discussed! Any ideas, thoughts, concerns about grabs/the game? Let's get 'em down here and see if we can't try to help make grabs the best they can be!

(PS: If anything here is sloppy/wrong/out of place, it's 2am and I am very tired.)

[mgtr14]

The cooldown isn't too long, its perfect. Especially for it's powerful punch, even if the damage is nerfed, the cooldown is still perfect. It's still a bit spammable, though.

As for seeing the grab coming, its incredibly hard to see it coming if your opponent has gloves with colors that match his chest, since if you're about to grab, it looks like they are standing. Honest question to devs, did they take a frame out of the " standing " animation and move the arms back a bit?


Also, please don't make it faster without fixing the animations, it's already hard to see and when you do realize that he is grabbing, its probably too late since the hitbox is a bit big and the speed is of someone who is running, wich is already fast enough for the distance it covers.
Actually, it's so quick that if you block a melee attack before grabbing, you may be able to grab your opponent before he gets to his 2nd or 3rd attack in the melee combo. Pretty sure a dedicated key for grabbing would prevent this, since you can actually block for a short amount of time before grabbing with A + D.

I agree with the rest.

[TheBlackshot]

I agree that the grabs are overall decent, especially for it's just released now.
However I have to say, the damage you get from the power punch is too immense, since the whole grab is mainly an opposition to blocking, a (or the) counter to complete the elementary melee system. It's too much of a punishment just for trying to block a punch. So I'd say let's make it 1.5 of a fist punch, if not a tiny bit more.
The throw is after my observations too far as well. You're likely to land massive damage already (to the enviroment) when you throw someone casually. A detailed descrease is needed, in my opinion.
What I can fully agree on with Luntic is the cooldown. Currently, it's making the whole melee system too faltering instead of fluent and consecutive for the whole combat.
Another point I have is that actions when you grab someone, are a tad too slow. You're vulnerable in the meanwhile (fortunately only from one side when it comes to bullets), which I can't really welcome. After all I'm confused whether grabs are supposed to "complete the melee system or 'rock paper scissors game'", or if it's a cool, powerful move you can do. Intention is on the former, but it doesn't look much like it.
Maybe my view is too blurry to have a solid opinion on this.

[Gurt]

We have a dedicated bindable grab button (default R) ready for the next update which we will roll out soon enough.

We have carefully chosen the cooldown to prevent spamable behavior to avoid you grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing... the same person repeatedly and to prevent people from grabbing too soon after failing a grab (after getting hit while grabbing). With a separate button for grabbing it will be more clear when you can and can't grab. We also figured that the total "dps" for the grabbing move is pretty low compared to a 3x melee combo so that's why the punch deals 2x (unarmed) melee damage + possible fall damage for now.

[Splinter]

But is that going to be an option? I like A+D. I mean, you guys couldn't wait a single day before complaining about the new mechanic. After practicing a bit, I had no trouble in performing grabs. Maybe it's because my punch is actually S (kick is A). It's much easier to punch with your middle finger than your ring finger.

Edit: Also, I like how the power punch does more damage than regular punch, otherwise grabs wouldn't be very useful unless you're next to a pit. Lunatic said it should be no more than 10, but a regular punch does 8.5 damage. So why grab if I can punch? Punching would do the same damage, but faster. If you have to nerf the power punch damage, I'd say 14-15 is good.

[Hjarpe]

But is that going to be an option? I like A+D. I mean, you guys couldn't wait a single day before complaining about the new mechanic. After practicing a bit, I had no trouble in performing grabs. Maybe it's because my punch is actually S (kick is A). It's much easier to punch with your middle finger than your ring finger.

A+D will still work. We've talked about adding more options in the key bindings, to disable combination inputs like A+D to grab and double-tap a direction to sprint, since some people like them while others feel they get in the way. But initially we'll just add a bindable "grab" key (R by default since it's not used in melee anyway).

[Del Poncho]

The only thing I've noticed that feels wrong,is the fact that after downing someone (After a 3-punch combo,for example),it's very easy to grab him.
The only defenses from this kind of attack are a roll after being downed,or starting to wave your fists as soon as you get up.

But again,maybe it's just a bit too fast to jump to conclusions. Maybe everybody will get used to it and find a way to counter it quickly.

[Lunatic]

We have a dedicated bindable grab button (default R) ready for the next update which we will roll out soon enough.

Woo! Glad to hear it.

We have carefully chosen the cooldown to prevent spamable behavior to avoid you grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing... the same person repeatedly and to prevent people from grabbing too soon after failing a grab (after getting hit while grabbing). With a separate button for grabbing it will be more clear when you can and can't grab. We also figured that the total "dps" for the grabbing move is pretty low compared to a 3x melee combo so that's why the punch deals 2x (unarmed) melee damage + possible fall damage for now.

I think the cooldown upon power punching/throwing someone is great, as it does indeed stop you from running forward to get the next grab. This was well-implemented and I have 0 problem with this part of the move. However, the additional cooldown you must wait out to grab again is pretty questionable in my opinion. The power punch does do 17 damage + the knockback, with the hit alone doing a sizable chunk of damage. One of the problems that comes out of such a high damage move, is that I feel heavily inclined to go for a stun first, so that I can guarantee the grab and nuke someone. This is where the problems start to surface: Is the move itself fine, but busted when in a combo?

Let's say we have an uppercut that deals 15 damage, but can only hit an airborne opponent. Sounds like a good anti-air, right? But if we have another move that forces someone up into the air with 10 damage and enough room to uppercut, suddenly we have this huge damage combo that feels a little extreme, and I think grabs are in a similar predicament. By jumping up and knocking someone over with a kick + grab, I can do 20 damage + falling damage, and with a jump punch, that's 25.5 damage! Add a melee weapon and that number keeps growing. I could also use a pump shotgun to shoot, sheathe, and grab while they try to get up, which comes out to 39.5 damage before fall damage. This is pretty extreme, and there are other tricks/mixups to snag some serious damage. I like melee feeling so valid right now, and while I love grabs, I'm concerned that their power punch makes them too strong.

This is why I recommend changes to the cooldown and speed of the grab itself, so that should the damage be decreased (which I think is necessary to make these combos not do so much damage) the move itself doesn't suffer so much that it becomes near worthless. I also like the skewed reward idea between a power punch and a throw: If you're in a good place to throw, you could very well kill instantly from full health, which would make you want to throw more. However, the benefit is closely tied to your surroundings, so you might get a better benefit by just punching the guy. There's definitely a lot to consider here.

All in all I think grabs are quite easily beaten by just about any melee weapon + spamming attack. Fists might not do as good because of the range limitations, but spamming attack with pretty much any weapon covers enough space that players can't rush in between swings and grab you like they can with punches - which all comes down to strict timing. Machete, Bat, Chain, Katana, Axe - all these weapons have plenty of range to keep someone away from you, so if they're in range to hit, they should be easy enough to stop. If grabs are spammable to the point where you can lock someone in place, there's a problem, but with the way throws and punches work today, that won't ever be a problem as long as you don't make people recover faster from the moves. That said, I think players need to keep playing and adapt more to beating grabs. It's not a lie that they're a bit strong with the punch, but if we fix that and make them more reliable, it'll feel like it fits in a little better. Add in a slight lock after missing a grab (like how we have kneel after jump attacks) and I think the move will be fine.

[Iliyan]

We have a dedicated bindable grab button (default R) ready for the next update which we will roll out soon enough.

Woo! Glad to hear it.

will it be optional to uso the button or the normal a+d because i prefere the later one

[Judy]

We have a dedicated bindable grab button (default R) ready for the next update which we will roll out soon enough.

We have carefully chosen the cooldown to prevent spamable behavior to avoid you grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing... the same person repeatedly and to prevent people from grabbing too soon after failing a grab (after getting hit while grabbing). With a separate button for grabbing it will be more clear when you can and can't grab. We also figured that the total "dps" for the grabbing move is pretty low compared to a 3x melee combo so that's why the punch deals 2x (unarmed) melee damage + possible fall damage for now.

I have been thinking alot about how beneficial it would be for the player to be able to walk around with a dead body as a meat shield.
For example, someone is spamming M60 but you have a dead body next to you. You grab the dead body and defend yourself with it until it gibs also getting closer to the enemy. Maybe that will give a good chance to reach the m60 spammer.
There could be other uses of movement while grabbing but i can't name them because i can't think of any now. Maybe it is not as intended but it would make sense.

Is that a good idea? Will that be implemented? Because i have carried this debate with some of the community members and I've been told that it's a bad idea and that i should knock myself out.

[Gurt]

We have a dedicated bindable grab button (default R) ready for the next update which we will roll out soon enough.

We have carefully chosen the cooldown to prevent spamable behavior to avoid you grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing, throwing, running forward, grabbing... the same person repeatedly and to prevent people from grabbing too soon after failing a grab (after getting hit while grabbing). With a separate button for grabbing it will be more clear when you can and can't grab. We also figured that the total "dps" for the grabbing move is pretty low compared to a 3x melee combo so that's why the punch deals 2x (unarmed) melee damage + possible fall damage for now.

I have been thinking alot about how beneficial it would be for the player to be able to walk around with a dead body as a meat shield.
For example, someone is spamming M60 but you have a dead body next to you. You grab the dead body and defend yourself with it until it gibs also getting closer to the enemy. Maybe that will give a good chance to reach the m60 spammer.
There could be other uses of movement while grabbing but i can't name them because i can't think of any now. Maybe it is not as intended but it would make sense.

Is that a good idea? Will that be implemented? Because i have carried this debate with some of the community members and I've been told that it's a bad idea and that i should knock myself out.

Walking with a dead body is a neat idea as walking is very slow so you need to dump the body in favor for speed, and bodies don't last forever. The idea hasn't crossed my mind.

[mgtr14]

I also noticed, that it doesn't take stamina to grab. Make it take stamina and make us unable to do a grab without enough stamina, that should prevent some spam.

EDIT: Also, the damage is still to high, and you got another option to throw them too. And with possible fall damage, it definetely needs a nerf. Because for the most part there is some fall that is enough to deal some damage by itself, wich deals way to much damage already. Maybe even instakill some people.

[Judy]

I also noticed, that it doesn't take stamina to grab. Make it take stamina and make us unable to do a grab without enough stamina, that should prevent some spam.

EDIT: Also, the damage is still to high, and you got another option to throw them too. And with possible fall damage, it definetely needs a nerf. Because for the most part there is some fall that is enough to deal some damage by itself, wich deals way to much damage already. Maybe even instakill some people.

SO if you run out of stamina the body falls out of your hands, is that what you mean? That may be tricky and not effective. If someone would be shooting at me and i would be holding against me a dead body as a meat-shield I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT under any circumstances DROP IT! no! in this game the characters are SUPERFIGHTERS! How could they not hold a dead body, what are they disabled? What if it drops out of your hands while someone is shooting you? that wouldn't be effective. i say you should be able to hold it without a limited amount if time, without having stamina to decide your faith.

or are you saying that if you would have, let's say 20% stamina you wouldn't be able to hold grab the enemy, due to low stamina? and then if you have let's say 30 % you would be able to hold grab, while stamina wouldn't change it's value?

A very good idea related to stamina, is that while holding/ grabbing the dead body, your stamina wouldn't regenerate. THAT might make sense..

[mgtr14]

I also noticed, that it doesn't take stamina to grab. Make it take stamina and make us unable to do a grab without enough stamina, that should prevent some spam.

EDIT: Also, the damage is still to high, and you got another option to throw them too. And with possible fall damage, it definetely needs a nerf. Because for the most part there is some fall that is enough to deal some damage by itself, wich deals way to much damage already. Maybe even instakill some people.

SO if you run out of stamina the body falls out of your hands, is that what you mean? That may be tricky and not effective. If someone would be shooting at me and i would be holding against me a dead body as a meat-shield I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT under any circumstances DROP IT! no! in this game the characters are SUPERFIGHTERS! How could they not hold a dead body, what are they disabled? What if it drops out of your hands while someone is shooting you? that wouldn't be effective. i say you should be able to hold it without a limited amount if time, without having stamina to decide your faith.

or are you saying that if you would have, let's say 20% stamina you wouldn't be able to hold grab the enemy, due to low stamina? and then if you have let's say 30 % you would be able to hold grab, while stamina wouldn't change it's value?

A very good idea related to stamina, is that while holding/ grabbing the dead body, your stamina wouldn't regenerate. THAT might make sense..

I didn't think about holding a dead body and the small suggestions near the end brought up an idea on how to prevent spam in a reasonable way and rewards quick thinking.

If you try to grab and miss, you lose a bit more stamina than if you grabbed someone.
And if you land a grab, the more time you hold an opponent, the more stamina you lose, but only if whoever you grabbed is still alive. They are trying to escape your grab, remember?

If you do grab your opponent, there is some time where even if you have no stamina, you can hold him anyways. This period should be very short, and when that time is up, you drop him instanty if you've got no stamina to keep holding him. You will still drop him after 2 seconds. So if you are quick enough, you lose a bit less stamina. and if you for whatever reason want to hold someone for a bit longer, you need stamina. This should still encourage saving stamina and definetely encourage fast thinking, to keep the quick pace in the game. And as judy suggested, your stamina doesn't regenerate when you hold anybody.

[Judy]

I didn't think about holding a dead body and the small suggestions near the end brought up an idea on how to prevent spam in a reasonable way and rewards quick thinking.

If you try to grab and miss, you lose a bit more stamina than if you grabbed someone.
And if you land a grab, the more time you hold an opponent, the more stamina you lose, but only if whoever you grabbed is still alive. They are trying to escape your grab, remember?

If you do grab your opponent, there is some time where you can hold him before you start losing stamina. This period should be very short, and when that time is up, you start losing stamina the more time you hold him. You will still drop him after 2 seconds, but you are forced to drop him earlier if your stamina runs out then. So if you are quick enough, only the grab itself will take some stamina, and if you for whatever reason want to hold someone for a bit longer, you need stamina. This should still encourage saving stamina and definetely encourage fast thinking, to keep the quick pace in the game. And as judy suggested, your stamina doesn't regenerate when you hold anybody.

I was still talking about dead bodies. if you grab an enemy still alive, it's very possible that you lose grip immediately. imagine a guy raising up a dude to throw him off a cliff and succeeds.. that is the best scenario. but the guy can always escape his grip and run. if he would be dead there is no struggle. hence, no stamina loss. yes IF HE IS STILL ALIVE you could lose stamina, as he "struggles" to escape( mean struggle but the game animation being limited, you would just drop him in three seconds, you wouldn't see movement). that would make sense indeed. i haven't noticed that was what you we're talking about :0
but my idea about DEAD BODIES that can be held forever, until destroyed, remains.

[mgtr14]

I didn't think about holding a dead body and the small suggestions near the end brought up an idea on how to prevent spam in a reasonable way and rewards quick thinking.

If you try to grab and miss, you lose a bit more stamina than if you grabbed someone.
And if you land a grab, the more time you hold an opponent, the more stamina you lose, but only if whoever you grabbed is still alive. They are trying to escape your grab, remember?

If you do grab your opponent, there is some time where you can hold him before you start losing stamina. This period should be very short, and when that time is up, you start losing stamina the more time you hold him. You will still drop him after 2 seconds, but you are forced to drop him earlier if your stamina runs out before then. So if you are quick enough, only the grab itself will take some stamina, and if you for whatever reason want to hold someone for a bit longer, you need stamina. This should still encourage saving stamina and definetely encourage fast thinking, to keep the quick pace in the game. And as judy suggested, your stamina doesn't regenerate when you hold anybody.

I was still talking about dead bodies. if you grab an enemy still alive, it's very possible that you lose grip immediately. imagine a guy raising up a dude to throw him off a cliff and succeeds.. that is the best scenario. but the guy can always escape his grip and run. if he would be dead there is no struggle. hence, no stamina loss. yes IF HE IS STILL ALIVE you could lose stamina, as he "struggles" to escape( mean struggle but the game animation being limited, you would just drop him in three seconds, you wouldn't see movement). that would make sense indeed. i haven't noticed that was what you we're talking about :0
but my idea about DEAD BODIES that can be held forever, until destroyed, remains.

Yeah. I did, "And if you land a grab, the more time you hold an opponent, the more stamina you lose, but only if whoever you grabbed is still alive. " Only your stamina wouldn't regenerate.